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 Post subject: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:36 pm 
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First, I know damn well that I'm going to get bent over a stump for suggesting this, but I hope that you will take the time to examine the reasoning.

Jones is likely to become one of the highest paid receivers in the league. We're talking 15 to 20 million a year. With Matt Ryan also on the team, and also eating up 20 million a year, we'd be using up 30% of our salary cap on two players.

Adding Julio Jones was supposed to put us, "over the top." The Falcons have had two straight seasons of losing football with Jones coming into his own. Obviously, he wasn't the missing piece of the puzzle. Investing 15-20 million a year into a player that has not helped you to a winning record for the past two years, doesn't make a lot of sense. I know that the same can be said for Matt Ryan. Finding another wide receiver who can account for 1,000+ yards is a lot easier than finding another QB who can throw for 4,000. The point is, if you tie up all of your assets into two players, the team isn't going to be that great. I'd rather split that 15-20 million a year between a WR, a TE, and an OL (5-7 million per player) rather than sinking it all into Julio Jones.

The teams who pay big money to wide receivers do not often make it to the superbowl. Playoff games are typically won by teams with good/great defense, and good/great QB's. Have a look at the top paid WR's, and see how well that translates into playoff wins:
http://overthecap.com/position/wide-receiver/

Julio, though often injured, has value at this point. When healthy, he is absolutely one of the elite receivers in this league. People will buy tickets just to see him play. SOMEONE should be willing to make a move to get him, as we were several years ago. The Falcons could deal for players, draft picks, or a combination.

With the savings in money, plus the additional talent acquired through the trade, the Falcons would be able to do what they need to do to get this team back on track. We have the one thing that most of the teams in this league cannot find, a great QB. If we can protect him, put a good defense on the field, and keep enough young talent coming in the doors, the Falcons can be a playoff contender for a long time. If we keep Julio and Ryan together, we're going to have a flashy offense, but we're not going to be able to afford to put together a decent defense, and it's going to be hard to keep any other talent that we find.

:fingersx: :ninja: :fingersx:


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:07 pm 
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Decent argument, but there's not a chance in hell it will happen.

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:16 am 
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Does the fact that MR is the highest paid player in the NFL not underline that our FO is so full of s*** their eyes are brown?

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:31 am 
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backnblack wrote:
Does the fact that MR is the highest paid player in the NFL not underline that our FO is so full of s*** their eyes are brown?

Unless this is wrong, Matt is #2.
http://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/

Also, if you look at cap hit on a yearly basis, Matt is actually 4th or 5th, behind Brees, Roethlisberger, the Manning brothers, and Romo. Granted, Matt makes too much money, and I am on record saying that he should take a pay cut this year.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:38 am 
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We're a 6-10 team with Julio and we'd be a 2-14 team without him.

You NEED a really good QB in this league to win. We have one. You need a really good WR in this league to win. We have one. You need a really good defense in this league to compete in the playoffs. We have.......wait.........never mind.


Ryan's contract isn't crippling......though I agree he does need to adjust it to help us get some players on the other side of the ball.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:10 pm 
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Once again, Ryan isn't great but he's above average!! He's good!!

Your argument is a good one, but teams won't over pay for Julio
like we did. Plus with no other receivers (Roddy's getting old now) we'd be screwed.

Your Gm can do a terrible job and take you from good to bad, but it usually takes patience to get good again.... We need to draft defensive linemen, and more offensive linemen.

Blank wants a Super Bowl team without putting in the time, and that just doesn't happen. Look at teams like New England, they've not won a Super Bowl in years, but their consistently knocking at the door. That's what it takes, constantly getting in the playoffs, and one year the ball bounces your way, maybe you go to a couple of Super Bowls but your close every year!! We got close then Blank let us trade all of our draft choices away, for Julio?

I've loved this team since I was a little boy, and use to drive to Johnson City Tennessee every day to watch their practices. At 64 I guess I feel I've watched them do everything to lose, and until they "build a good team" I'm afraid they won't have one!!

Its kinda like you suggested Robert, we need about 6 new GOOD players and you don't get that in a year. We need a few more good Offensive linemen, we need a lot of good defensive linemen, then a couple of good linebackers to be really competitive.....

Realistically the above would probably take 3 years to do it properly.
Blank won't wait 3 years, in 3 years he'll be saying the same thing he's said since he got here.....iTS A SHAME and I thought he'd be smarter than this!!

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:48 am 
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I thought they were doing this when TD/Smith first got here, Cyril. The Vick/Petrino fiasco seemed like a blessing in disguise in that the sorry franchise had been burnt to with a centimeter of the ground and instead of patching it together with Scotch tape and bubble gum they were finally going to build it right from the ground up (players closest to the ball) because the fan base was expecting zip. But a funny thing happened on the way to the Super Bowl and they won right out of the gate and, just like our appetites at Thanksgiving, the more there was to have the more we wanted and patience went out the window. It may be simplistic but I put this on Blank. I think he was impatient and that his urgency was too reckless. We traded for receivers rather than building blocks and, to be fair, it damn near worked although it would not have resulted in the stated initial plan of being consistently relevant in five years (from 2008). We are not as bad off as we were in Vick and Petrino's wake but I'd say we are in similar shape as we were when Reeves was ousted.

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:23 am 
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BnB Wrote:
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It may be simplistic but I put this on Blank. I think he was impatient and that his urgency was too reckless. We traded for receivers rather than building blocks


It is on Blank. One year he wants bigger plays, the next year he wants tougher players, and he keeps the worst person in the system being Thomas D.

I think its worse than when Reeves quit, because Blank was new and everyone knew Blank could change this franchise. Now we know he's a stumbling block not a help.

I mean the only thing that's changed about this Franchise is the best Coach who we ever had is fired (I admit it was probably his time) but he kept the Gm who was responsible for the mess!!

Blank has had 10 years plus or minus to show us what kind of football business man he is, and he's the worst!! He doesn't know anything, but he mingles, pisses off coaches, and the worst part is he does all this stuff, and I believe he's trying to get it right!! What a clown he's been,
dressed in a suit!!

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:30 am 
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You do realize how much Soliai, Jackson, and Baker make, right?

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:51 am 
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samedi wrote:
You do realize how much Soliai, Jackson, and Baker make, right?

:beef:

Soliai and Jackson are horribly overpaid considering their performance. Unfortunately, because of the way the contracts are structured, we're stuck with them for at least another season.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:00 am 
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Quote:
It is on Blank. One year he wants bigger plays, the next year he wants tougher players



Ummm, just as reminder, we did need to become more explosive on offense. Three yards and cloud of dust and receivers that couldn't stretch the field. We went out and got one of the top three receivers in the game to fix this......so what's your problem.

Ummm, just as a reminder, we did need to get tougher. Still do. We are being pushed around on both sides of the ball. Blank said it. We as fans have been saying it as well. So what's your deal? Your hatred of Blank is blinding you to the facts.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:35 am 
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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
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? Your hatred of Blank is blinding you to the facts.



Blank has had 15 years of ownership.

Taylor Smith had 5.

Sorry a$$ Taylor 'nepotism' Smith has accomplished MORE in his five years of apathy, then 15 years of 'hands on' Arthur Blank.

Guess what? That is a fact. :naughty:

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:07 am 
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fun gus wrote:
AngryJohnny51 wrote:
Quote:
? Your hatred of Blank is blinding you to the facts.



Blank has had 15 years of ownership.

Taylor Smith had 5.

Sorry a$$ Taylor 'nepotism' Smith has accomplished MORE in his five years of apathy, then 15 years of 'hands on' Arthur Blank.

Guess what? That is a fact. :naughty:



Ok.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:33 pm 
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Angry Wrote:
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Ummm, just as reminder, we did need to become more explosive on offense. Three yards and cloud of dust and receivers that couldn't stretch the field. We went out and got one of the top three receivers in the game to fix this......so what's your problem.


My problem is we mortgaged our future to achieve this. It would be different if I was bitching the second it happened, but now we can see what losing all those drafts picks did.......

As you know we went 4-12 last year and 6-10 this year......That's what mortgaging our future means......That's my problem!! We can stretch
the field now but can't win?? One must be more important than the other?

You can't be pleased we went from 12 wins to 4 wins in about a year?

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:57 pm 
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Cyril wrote:
Angry Wrote:
Quote:
Ummm, just as reminder, we did need to become more explosive on offense. Three yards and cloud of dust and receivers that couldn't stretch the field. We went out and got one of the top three receivers in the game to fix this......so what's your problem.


My problem is we mortgaged our future to achieve this. It would be different if I was bitching the second it happened, but now we can see what losing all those drafts picks did.......

As you know we went 4-12 last year and 6-10 this year......That's what mortgaging our future means......That's my problem!! We can stretch
the field now but can't win?? One must be more important than the other?

You can't be pleased we went from 12 wins to 4 wins in about a year?


We were close to going to a Super Bowl. Blank and the brain trust went all in. It didn't work and now we have to restock the cupboards a bit. I can live with "going for it" strategy.

When we were that close and if Blank and the brain trust sat on their laurels and did nothing instead, people like you would be bitching about that right now....

We get your point. You hate Blank. That's your right. If Arthur Blank told you the sky was blue and water was wet you'd still bitch and argue. I see it another way and maybe other do too. We were close. We went for it all.....and it didn't work out. And I'm okay with that.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:59 pm 
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I don't think many believe sacrificing one year with no "pay off" is worth
the complete downfall of the franchise.

I don't hate Blank, I don't know him. I do hate the way he treated Season ticket holders, and his making promises he doesn't have the power to keep.

I respect your opinions are different than mine, on Blank... Mine are based
on being a season ticket holder for 28 years under the Smiths, and ten years under Blank. (Or that's close) I do hate how Blank treats season tickets holders, so I stopped going. I also hate Blanks desire for attention, then he doesn't produce!! Mine distaste for the man is based on my experiences.

We all use the word "hate" too easily, its fair (from my point of view) to
criticize Blank based on my experience from him, and like you said I'm sure their are many who really like the guy.

Remember we did go to a Super Bowl with the Smith's and they never promised anything, and that's what we got many years!! As far as I can tell Blank is following in their footsteps!!

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:30 pm 
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Quote:
When we were that close and if Blank and the brain trust sat on their laurels and did nothing instead, people like you would be bitching about that right now....


" PEOPLE LIKE ME? " i'VE been UP on this team since Mike Smith came along and that's the last seven years....I liked Dan Reeves too, and Leaman Bennett.....The first 5 years of Mike Smith's football was the best
football I've had the pleasure of watching.

In the NFL you can never sit on your laurels, that's why the Patroit's and Packers, and the usual teams are always in the playoffs. Yes I would bitch if we sat on whatever laurels we have, but you sound like you believe I've been bitching about the team forever!! That's simply not true!!

Blank is our owner and he's taken us nowhere, he's not on the field (except) the last hew minutes and his record as owner is nothing to be proud of!!

DAMN that was a low blow but lets keep it civil, I can dish it out, but I can take it too!!

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:00 pm 
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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
When we were that close and if Blank and the brain trust sat on their laurels and did nothing instead, people like you would be bitching about that right now....

Well, I can't speak for Cyril, but I can speak for me... I was completely against the Julio trade from the beginning because I know that building a consistent winner relies on having a lot of good players, not one great one. When the Julio Jones trade was made, the falcons NEEDED upgrades on the offensive and defensive lines. The move to get Jones cost us our ability to deal with those issues. You're welcome to dig up posts from the time period to see exactly what I had to say about this.

The Falcons could have addressed the WR position without trading the farm to get it. When you have a QB who is a high % passer, he can get more out of lesser receivers, provided you give him time to throw the ball. We were also seeing our run game start to have trouble around that time, which made it more clear that our offense was in trouble. As I recall, we had one pass rusher on defense, John Abraham. Though we used some late round picks on DE's, they never seemed to pan out.

The signs were there. The move to get Julio was the biggest mistake that this front office has made.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:21 pm 
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RobertAP wrote:
AngryJohnny51 wrote:
The move to get Julio was the biggest mistake that this front office has made.



I disagree. We could have dealt with the loss of picks with decent FA aqcuisitions. But when you are bringing in Ray Edwards, Stephen Jackson, robiske, Tyson Jackson, etc etc the it amplifies the Julio loss of picks. When you look at the ROI on Julio ( even being injured ) it is at least a net 'push' if not a slightly positive impact in terms of spending all those draft slots...

The biggest mistake was thinking you could outsmart the room in FA, and the bigger mistake then that is keeping the same clowns that made the mistake in the first place. :beef:

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:37 am 
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At the time I had no clue who Julio even was. Until Tennessee starts winning I'm just a fair weather Tennessee Fan who would gladly have Tennessee lose and the Falcons win. That's also why I don't comment on the draft on draft day.

I don't think a wide receiver is as easy as Robert makes it sound, but he was certainly against the Julio pick. I believe he's right since we won 10 games in two years with Julio. Then the free agent screw-ups hurt us too,
and paying Sam Baker almost 20 million last year in a deal breaker.

Those draft picks should have been made to get Offensive linemen and
Defensive linemen. Thomas D. use to get some Devin Hester's every year!! I just assume Thomas doesn't care about linebackers??

As for Harry Douglas I think he finally came into his own, but Matt Ryan did tend to have targets he trusted, while I think Matt's become better at just hitting the open man!!

Bottom line is all those moves be them right or wrong, has lead us to become a poor team for the last two years. The front office needed to change so badly, but we stood pat with what put us here!!

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:08 am 
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fun gus wrote:
RobertAP wrote:
AngryJohnny51 wrote:
The move to get Julio was the biggest mistake that this front office has made.



I disagree. We could have dealt with the loss of picks with decent FA aqcuisitions. But when you are bringing in Ray Edwards, Stephen Jackson, robiske, Tyson Jackson, etc etc the it amplifies the Julio loss of picks. When you look at the ROI on Julio ( even being injured ) it is at least a net 'push' if not a slightly positive impact in terms of spending all those draft slots...

The biggest mistake was thinking you could outsmart the room in FA, and the bigger mistake then that is keeping the same clowns that made the mistake in the first place. :beef:


I do, but don't agree. The successful NFL teams build their teams through the draft. If they need to fill holes, they do it with the middle of the road free agents, not the ones that break the bank.

The Falcons have attempted to fix our holes through free agency by spending quite high, and they have almost always paid for it. Teams do not let good players go unless they absolutely have to. Teams let bad players go. Teams let players go who they believe to be past their prime. Teams let players go who have some kind of baggage. Teams let players go who are disgruntled. If those players are disgruntled about money, it's likely that there's something else in play. (work ethic, locker room cancer, injuries, etc) Lastly, teams let players go who do not fit the scheme that they're trying to run.

When I look around the league at the, "playoff caliber teams," I see teams that have built through the draft. I see teams that don't trade away picks to get one good/great player. The teams that I see that make those kinds of moves are typically the teams that end up perennial losers.

The Falcons, under Blank, get star struck. Our owner carted our injured QB onto the field. We gave up the farm to get Julio Jones. We tried to rekindle Devin Hester's career as a WR. We brought in Tony Gonzales for the twilight of his career. We brought in Steven Jackson for the twilight of his career. We brought in Osi Umenyiora for the twilight of his career. These kinds of moves are consistent with what I'd expect from the Raiders, or the Redskins. Sadly, they're also the moves of the Falcons.

If the Falcons want to right this ship, they need to stop seeing stars, and start seeing football players. TEAMS win superbowls, not individual superstars.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for Trading Julio Jones
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:40 pm 
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You can't put the genie back in the bottle. We gave up the farm for Julio, yes, but we're not going to get that back by trading him. Seattle traded a 1st, 3rd & 7th for Harvin. What do you think the Falcons would get for Julio? Probably not much more. Maybe a 1st, 3rd & 5th??

What really are those picks going to do? They're not going to be the difference between winning a championship and losing, unless we wind up drafting J.J. Watt or somebody on that level with one of those picks. And if that's the case, then that was just random luck than anything.

I was against the Julio trade at the jump, but in the years since I've realized that in and of itself, it was a wash. As others have stated, the problems isn't with that trade, it's with all of the other moves surrounding that trade. Wasting picks on Konz, Holmes, Dent with the premium picks we did keep. Missing on free agents like Manuwai, Tatupu, Edwards, Tyson Jackson, etc.

The Falcons cut their ability to acquire talent by giving up those premium picks, but it wouldn't have mattered if they had actually acquired talent with the picks they kept and the free-agent signings they made.

So when it comes to trading Julio, I see it in the same manner. Whether the Falcons trade Julio or not really doesn't matter. It's really about all the other moves the team can make. You don't need to use a high pick on a player like Julio to get a good WR. While having the extra picks increases your chances of acquiring talent, it's by no means a guarantee.

Ultimately, whether we're paying Julio $16M/yr. or not paying him that much won't make or break this team. This team can be successful paying him that amount of money if they draft well and actually hit on free agents. Julio doesn't affect that as much as you think he does.

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