Coaches Getting the Ax..Which coach let us down the most ???

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Coaches Getting the Ax..Which coach let us down the most ???

Postby FalconAwesome » Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:15 pm

Tice is out of Minnesota, Capers out of Houston, Martz gone from St. Louis

More to come I'm sure.

My question for Incomp, Dirty and all you other guys way more knowledgeable than me--Which of our coaches if any deserves the most criticism for this years disappointing end. I still love of our team but I am just trying to make some sense of all of this.

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Postby dirtybirdnw » Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:27 pm

Above all else our defense has really let us down the most. The offense is expected to have growing pains with Vick learning the system plus rookie and first time starter as key targets for Vick to pass too.

Sorry Ed but Green Bay was right your soft zones are horrible and one of the biggest problems of this team.

Not too far behind Ed Donatell and possibly going with him are one Emmitt Thomas (DB Coach) and Bill Johnson (DL Coach). Both units performed very poorly (partly to play calling) but I think a lot of it has to do with players not being coached to the best of their skills. I think we've seen it on both sides of the ball. The coaching staff is not completely using the players strengths they are too concerned about staying in the system.
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Postby Wease » Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:03 am

The biggest disappointment this year has to be Special Teams. DeCamillas will not include this season on his resume. I am willing to give a a bye on this year as a fluke, but we defintely had the most undisciplined Special Teams in my 30+ year Falcon memory.

I was hoping we could actually sign a guy named "Illegal Block in the Back" so we could cut him.

W

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Postby Capologist » Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:34 am

LOL! Great one Wease!

I'm more disappointed in the front office more than the coaches.

1. We still didn't add size to the o-line and they even tried to BS the fan base and tell us how great of a line it was when we all knew good and well it was garbage when it comes to pass blocking.

2. We didn't add any depth to CB. We had D-Hall, J-Web and Mathis. I thought for sure we'd at least draft someone but when that didn't happen I felt we were rolling the dice to stay healthy.

3. We didn't have a backup plan at safety. There were question marks there but we still didn't do anything other than sign Ronnie Heard which isn't exactly an insurance policy.

This year I expect Brady Smith's replacement to be found. He's getting older and unable to stay on the field. I think Hartwell and Beck's return will help tremendously as it gets D-mo out of the starting lineup since he's horrible against the run. I expect us to address the secondary issues as well as the offensive line issues this offseason too.

Hopefully this won't be labeled an offseason of disappointment...

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Postby dirtybirdnw » Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:36 am

My concern about the secondary next year is that Mathis & Cash comeback (Mathis not retiring) and the front office deems our secondary good enough to not address during the draft or free agency.
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Postby Capologist » Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:51 am

I'm not certain Mathis comes back from that injury. He wrecked everything in that knee. If we don't I'm going to have serious doubts about our team philosophy...

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Postby AngryJohnny51 » Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:42 am

Which of our coaches if any deserves the most criticism


Donatell for sure. We had the corners play way too off far too often. I'm not a big fan of the bend but don't break scheme and never have been. Why on God's green earth would you allow teams to move the ball up and down and then pray you hold in the red zone you only allow a field goal?

As for Knapp, the jury is still out for me on him and his game planning, but there have been rumblings that a few players are less than happy with him and his play calling. If Vick is one of these, you can bet you Falcon banner that he is gone. If Vick isn't happy, Mr. Blank isn't happy.

Also, I think Mora needs to step up as well. Everything was coming up roses last season and we were one win away from a Super Bowl appearance, but you can also judge a coach when things don't go quite your way. Temper tantrums, excuses, and such need to go. Another bad sign is that the team rolled over yesterday, perhaps a sign of tuning out the coaching staff?

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Postby RdHdBirdFan » Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:48 am

dirtybirdnw wrote:The offense is expected to have growing pains with Vick learning the system plus rookie and first time starter as key targets for Vick to pass too.


That dead horse named "Vick learning the system" has been beaten to the point of turning into pure BS. With no offensive line to keep the defenders off of Vick, it doesn't matter who he has receiver-wise to TRY to throw to. And IMO, if a professional athlete can't learn a system in two years, it's not likely he's ever going to learn it.

Knapp insists on trying to mold Vick into the kind of QB *HE* wants to run *HIS* system, and it's just not going to work with the personnel they have now. And I kind of doubt Vick is all that malleable anyhow.

Knapp needs to go away.

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Postby dirtybirdnw » Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:51 am

And how about that bend but don't break system. The system that is meant to contain an offense to gains of less then 10 yards per down. It is the 'safe' defense that doesn't allow deep plays. I think we may have been one of the league leaders for long passing players all the while playing a bend but don't break scheme.

If you are playing that scheme there should be no passes longer then 10 yards on any consistent basis. But it seems teams managed to air out more then a few 15+ yard passes. The only time I want to see a defense give up a long pass play is if the DB is truely beat and a quality pass blitz was handled well by the offense. There is no reason that while playing zone defense a receiver should get behind the secondary no reason at all. Yet this plagued us most of the season.
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Postby buddyboy » Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:00 pm

actually the three headed monster of mora, knapp, and donatell all have issues. we've all harped on knapp and donatell all season long, what hasn't been said about them. but what about mora's insane positivity? he refuses to acknowledge he along with the players stunk it up. the man was upbeat and positive after the game. how is that? the team gave up, how can u be upbeat after your team gives up? he needs to take a whiff of ammonia and wake up to reality, when he says his players never quit during the game. he talks about the character of this team (how many fights, have we started anyhow?not to mention some of the ridiculous penalties), he talks about a great team culture- a team of quitters. positivity is fine but the man is either delusional or is lying in order to keep all the negativity in house.i think he maybe the former.

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Postby dirtybirdnw » Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:05 pm

I think that has a lot to do with Mora Jr. being a maverick head coach and a young one at that. He's also probably not trying to repeat what got his dad fired... AKA stepping on players toes.
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Postby buddyboy » Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:24 pm

i see ur point dirty but mora seems to be taking it to an extreme. everybody saw that the team gave up, yet he contends he didn't see any players giving up.
perhaps he should step on a few toes. is anyone going to be held accountable?

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Postby dirtybirdnw » Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:57 pm

Sour grapes maybe? I'd be willing to bet (or hope) the team is getting a thorough thrashing in the locker room. I think Mora Jr. stated somewhere that he didn't like the idea of publicly calling out his players (although he did so with the receivers, namely Price).

I'm not about to go on a coaching witch hunt after we did so with Reeves and his staff. Perhaps Reeves wasn't the problem after all. I wonder if Atlanta had simply removed Reeves power of GM and made him find new assistant coaches where this team would be today.
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Postby The_Incomparable » Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:28 pm

Well, here goes. The biggest problem on this team is not necessarily the coaches, but instead it is the talent. We do have up to 10 guys with Pro Bowl talent. The problem is that almost none of them play offensive or defensive line, with the obvious exception of Coleman & Kerney.

The second biggest problem is the lack of balance. You hear about balance all the time, but it goes much deeper than percentage of playcalls being pass or run. First of all, we are building a speed team according to the "systems" that our coaches use. The problem with this is it needs to be balanced with some size & strength. If your team is built with speed a bigger, stronger team will bowl you over. We've seen it happen many times. KC, Seattle, Carolina, Bears, etc etc etc. These teams do not select player based solely on speed and thus they have balance, and also a 2006 playoff appearance by no small coincedence. Speed is very important, but without some beef to protect it up front it will get shut down more than we would like.

Another issue I have serious concerns about is the "systems" our coaches are implementing. McKay's speedy defense and Gibbs' speedy offensive line philosophies don't fly with me & they never have. I understand these guys have had success with these ideaologies, but do we really have the talent to do this? Better yet, how long will it take to get the talent to do this? Another question is this WCO Knapp is using. The reason the WCO worked so well was Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, John Taylor, Joe Montana, etc etc etc. You could have put those guys in a Wishbone Option attack and they would make it work. Obviously, the WCO looks like genius when you have those players running it, because it used Jerry & John as their running game. They threw short passes & let those guys make plays. Our young WR's are very talented, but I have questions about them being those kinds of players. The dink & dunk attack is not something we need to embrace with the explosive talent we have at our skill positions.

We have to get bigger & stronger along our lines, we have to rework the offense to fit our talent, and we need to get better talent to compliment the great players we already have. Vick has never been the problem in Atlanta, nor have any of our other Pro Bowl caliber players, but the problem has always been the general lack of talent in the supporting cast in Atlanta. They always hope for one guy to change everything, but the NFL is more team based than any other sport and our FO & coaches should know that by now after watching the Pats during their run.


buddyboy wrote:i see ur point dirty but mora seems to be taking it to an extreme. everybody saw that the team gave up, yet he contends he didn't see any players giving up.
perhaps he should step on a few toes. is anyone going to be held accountable?


People have been held accountable all year, with Price getting cut & multiple players getting benched. I think Mora & Co. are thinking they will keep buying time & getting their guys into Atlanta. Look for him to bring Schulters in to fill a Safety spot and look for him to work very hard to fix the run Defense in any way he can. He will most likely drop a lot of the veterans in order to free up money to bring in more young talent & some solid starters in FA. I think Mora is done holding people accountable & is looking to make changes that will help our depth & the quality of our supporting cast.
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Postby AngryJohnny51 » Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:05 pm

The_Incomparable wrote:Well, here goes. The biggest problem on this team is not necessarily the coaches, but instead it is the talent. We do have up to 10 guys with Pro Bowl talent. The problem is that almost none of them play offensive or defensive line, with the obvious exception of Coleman & Kerney.

The second biggest problem is the lack of balance. You hear about balance all the time, but it goes much deeper than percentage of playcalls being pass or run. First of all, we are building a speed team according to the "systems" that our coaches use. The problem with this is it needs to be balanced with some size & strength. If your team is built with speed a bigger, stronger team will bowl you over. We've seen it happen many times. KC, Seattle, Carolina, Bears, etc etc etc. These teams do not select player based solely on speed and thus they have balance, and also a 2006 playoff appearance by no small coincedence. Speed is very important, but without some beef to protect it up front it will get shut down more than we would like.

Another issue I have serious concerns about is the "systems" our coaches are implementing. McKay's speedy defense and Gibbs' speedy offensive line philosophies don't fly with me & they never have. I understand these guys have had success with these ideaologies, but do we really have the talent to do this? Better yet, how long will it take to get the talent to do this? Another question is this WCO Knapp is using. The reason the WCO worked so well was Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, John Taylor, Joe Montana, etc etc etc. You could have put those guys in a Wishbone Option attack and they would make it work. Obviously, the WCO looks like genius when you have those players running it, because it used Jerry & John as their running game. They threw short passes & let those guys make plays. Our young WR's are very talented, but I have questions about them being those kinds of players. The dink & dunk attack is not something we need to embrace with the explosive talent we have at our skill positions.

We have to get bigger & stronger along our lines, we have to rework the offense to fit our talent, and we need to get better talent to compliment the great players we already have. Vick has never been the problem in Atlanta, nor have any of our other Pro Bowl caliber players, but the problem has always been the general lack of talent in the supporting cast in Atlanta. They always hope for one guy to change everything, but the NFL is more team based than any other sport and our FO & coaches should know that by now after watching the Pats during their run.


buddyboy wrote:i see ur point dirty but mora seems to be taking it to an extreme. everybody saw that the team gave up, yet he contends he didn't see any players giving up.
perhaps he should step on a few toes. is anyone going to be held accountable?


People have been held accountable all year, with Price getting cut & multiple players getting benched. I think Mora & Co. are thinking they will keep buying time & getting their guys into Atlanta. Look for him to bring Schulters in to fill a Safety spot and look for him to work very hard to fix the run Defense in any way he can. He will most likely drop a lot of the veterans in order to free up money to bring in more young talent & some solid starters in FA. I think Mora is done holding people accountable & is looking to make changes that will help our depth & the quality of our supporting cast.


Good post 'Comp, and I agree we need to get bigger in the trenches, but another reason why we won't besides McKay and Knapp is we play in a dome. Right or wrong dome teams are supposed to be small and fast. With playing like that comes the label of being soft. I don't agree, but that's the way it is.

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Postby buddyboy » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:10 am

The_Incomparable wrote:Well, here goes. The biggest problem on this team is not necessarily the coaches, but instead it is the talent. We do have up to 10 guys with Pro Bowl talent. The problem is that almost none of them play offensive or defensive line, with the obvious exception of Coleman & Kerney.

The second biggest problem is the lack of balance. You hear about balance all the time, but it goes much deeper than percentage of playcalls being pass or run. First of all, we are building a speed team according to the "systems" that our coaches use. The problem with this is it needs to be balanced with some size & strength. If your team is built with speed a bigger, stronger team will bowl you over. We've seen it happen many times. KC, Seattle, Carolina, Bears, etc etc etc. These teams do not select player based solely on speed and thus they have balance, and also a 2006 playoff appearance by no small coincedence. Speed is very important, but without some beef to protect it up front it will get shut down more than we would like.

Another issue I have serious concerns about is the "systems" our coaches are implementing. McKay's speedy defense and Gibbs' speedy offensive line philosophies don't fly with me & they never have. I understand these guys have had success with these ideaologies, but do we really have the talent to do this? Better yet, how long will it take to get the talent to do this? Another question is this WCO Knapp is using. The reason the WCO worked so well was Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, John Taylor, Joe Montana, etc etc etc. You could have put those guys in a Wishbone Option attack and they would make it work. Obviously, the WCO looks like genius when you have those players running it, because it used Jerry & John as their running game. They threw short passes & let those guys make plays. Our young WR's are very talented, but I have questions about them being those kinds of players. The dink & dunk attack is not something we need to embrace with the explosive talent we have at our skill positions.

We have to get bigger & stronger along our lines, we have to rework the offense to fit our talent, and we need to get better talent to compliment the great players we already have. Vick has never been the problem in Atlanta, nor have any of our other Pro Bowl caliber players, but the problem has always been the general lack of talent in the supporting cast in Atlanta. They always hope for one guy to change everything, but the NFL is more team based than any other sport and our FO & coaches should know that by now after watching the Pats during their run.


buddyboy wrote:i see ur point dirty but mora seems to be taking it to an extreme. everybody saw that the team gave up, yet he contends he didn't see any players giving up.
perhaps he should step on a few toes. is anyone going to be held accountable?


People have been held accountable all year, with Price getting cut & multiple players getting benched. I think Mora & Co. are thinking they will keep buying time & getting their guys into Atlanta. Look for him to bring Schulters in to fill a Safety spot and look for him to work very hard to fix the run Defense in any way he can. He will most likely drop a lot of the veterans in order to free up money to bring in more young talent & some solid starters in FA. I think Mora is done holding people accountable & is looking to make changes that will help our depth & the quality of our supporting cast.


i agree with you there. i was speaking in terms of that last game though. lack of talent or injuries sucks but what can you do? it was the giving up on the game that i wanted him to acknowledge and respond to which he didn't. he saw no one quit on that field he says. i say b.s. admit it and fix it but don't deny the obvious.


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