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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:54 am 
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You'd pass on Williams for Hill? That's just crazy talk. :lol: That's like saying you would take Dunta Robinson over Sean Taylor.

We're not going to get Lawson. I just said that I would rather have him than anyone else except Mario & Ray Edwards. Ray Edwards is our best option at DE.

4.8 is not great for a DE, but it is serviceable. 4.4 or better = corner, 4.5 = Safety, 4.55 = Linebacker, 4.7 = DE.

Lendale White is nowhere near the top 5 of this draft, but he has been elevated there by a dominant offensive line that made him look like the 2nd coming of Earl Campbell in the Rose Bowl. It's to be expected & could end up helping us greatly.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:15 pm 
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Lendale White is nowhere near the top 5 of this draft, but he has been elevated there by a dominant offensive line that made him look like the 2nd coming of Earl Campbell in the Rose Bowl. It's to be expected & could end up helping us greatly.[/quote]

Don't know that I totally agree with that but time will tell I suppose....


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:56 pm 
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I believe you are twisting my words Pudge. I never claimed that a speed rusher should have 4.5 speed.

But if you have noticed the changing trend of football the "speed rusher" is changing. Just like CB, WR, TE, QB and FB. Hali is part of the "old school" speed rusher. The likes that teams are looking for these days are the Freeneys, Kearses, Peppers', Taylors, Suggs', Baja-Biamilia(sp), etc...etc...

I will use one of your stats against you. Kerney is not a speed rusher (although I know I will recieve flak from people who think he is) and he is alot faster then Hali. The bookend stay at home DE's are now faster then Hali in todays NFL. Any half decent OT will make Hali his bitch.

* side note* I'm pretty sure almost all of our starting OL (except Shaffer) has around 4.8 speed, which is right on par for Hali. Anyone have documentation that supports or disproves this?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:50 pm 
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The likes that teams are looking for these days are the Freeneys, Kearses, Peppers', Taylors, Suggs', Baja-Biamilia(sp), etc...etc...


Yes, but those players are all special. My point was to illustrate that you don't have to have "special" speed to be a quality pass rusher on the NFL. That's why names like Kerney, Wistrom, Brown, Schobel, and the Ellises were put on the list.

The question now becomes if Hali goes into Indy and runs a 4.63, will your opinion change of him? Or will you just say the elevated 40 time was due to focused training on it?

My point was to say that most DEs in the NFL run between 4.7 and 4.9. Hali is in that range. But you seem to be thinking negatively of him for not having exceptional speed for his position. That's like saying a WR sucks because he runs a 4.5 rather than having 4.35 speed. Most WRs in the NFL have 4.45 to 4.6 speed. Now you have guys like Donte Stallworth and Lee Evans being in the 4.25 range. That shoudln't become the foundation of being a "speed WR" just like running a 4.5 shouldn't be the new benchmark for a speed rusher. Until the majority of the players that go to the combine run under 4.65 and we have DEs in the league running 4.3s, then and only then should having a 4.5 40 be considered anything other than exceptional.

Jimmy Williams may be like Sean Taylor, but Tye Hill IMO is like Antoine Winfield. And Taylor is a freak and has the much greater upside, I'm going to take the more consistent player that is less likely to get ejected from a game that plays a much more important position. But if Jimmy Williams was Polamalu, Dawkins, or Bob Sanders, I'd be much more excited about him.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:38 am 
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Yes, but those players are all special. My point was to illustrate that you don't have to have "special" speed to be a quality pass rusher on the NFL. That's why names like Kerney, Wistrom, Brown, Schobel, and the Ellises were put on the list.

No they are the new breed of speed rushers that have intangible sot do other things, things that Hali does not have. Hali used his speed well in the college game only when he got a free pass on the outide, but that speed wont translate in the NFL.

The question now becomes if Hali goes into Indy and runs a 4.63, will your opinion change of him? Or will you just say the elevated 40 time was due to focused training on it?

Who knows what he will run so what speculate what people would say? But in regards to your assertion if he was to focus his training on his 40 then I would suspect he wouldn't run at Indy and choose to only run at his Pro Day where it will most likely be inflated due t it being recorded by hand.

My point was to say that most DEs in the NFL run between 4.7 and 4.9. Hali is in that range. But you seem to be thinking negatively of him for not having exceptional speed for his position

Again...see above. He is a speed rusher who does not have NFL speed for this position.

My whole point is, IMO if we draft Hali we will not be address the issues we have on the DL. We will just be adding one more player.

And btw I'm not talking about 4.5, I'm talking about 4.8. Thats a huge difference.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:42 am 
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*Shakes head* Now you're taking Bob Sanders over Sean Taylor? And Antoine Winfield over him too? Wow.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:03 pm 
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Well as far as attitude and ethics I can't blame ya for wanting a Winfield or Bob Sanders instead of Sean Taylor, but in terms of ability I haven't seen to many guys like Sean Taylor.....


Jimmy Williams looks like a beast to me and if he's there when we pick and we pass on him I am gonna be a little upset....maybe the front office knows more about this guy than I do (they darn well better!) and have decided he'd be a distraction or a liability, but in terms of talent and ability he looks like the real deal to me....


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:59 pm 
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The_Incomparable wrote:
*Shakes head* Now you're taking Bob Sanders over Sean Taylor? And Antoine Winfield over him too? Wow.


How often does a headcase like Taylor end up having a major impact at this level? I can see Sean Taylor going Rae Carruth. Unlike guys like Owens' who is just a headcase on the field Taylor has way too many off field issues.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:50 am 
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dirtybirdnw wrote:
The_Incomparable wrote:
*Shakes head* Now you're taking Bob Sanders over Sean Taylor? And Antoine Winfield over him too? Wow.


How often does a headcase like Taylor end up having a major impact at this level? I can see Sean Taylor going Rae Carruth. Unlike guys like Owens' who is just a headcase on the field Taylor has way too many off field issues.


But he is also still young...I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, and hope that he shapes up...Maybe, he should hire Rosenhaus :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:33 pm 
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mickvick302 wrote:
dirtybirdnw wrote:
The_Incomparable wrote:
*Shakes head* Now you're taking Bob Sanders over Sean Taylor? And Antoine Winfield over him too? Wow.


How often does a headcase like Taylor end up having a major impact at this level? I can see Sean Taylor going Rae Carruth. Unlike guys like Owens' who is just a headcase on the field Taylor has way too many off field issues.


But he is also still young...I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, and hope that he shapes up...Maybe, he should hire Rosenhaus :lol:


LMAO!! I'm going to say this & leave it alone. Sean Taylor could be one of the greatest Safeties to ever play the game if he stays out of trouble. In no way would I take anyone in this league at his position over him, regardless of his impending court case.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:05 pm 
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Well, Comp that clearly shows we're at a disagreement in terms of building a football team. I respect what McKay & Blank are trying to do by building a high character organization.

Taylor is a very low character individual. Since he's come into the league I don't think he's gone longer than 3 or 4 months without creating some incident off the field, on the field, or between him and the coaching staff.

Now I believe he's facing serious jail time with his gun charge. No way would I want a player of his character on this team despite his ability. And I also believe you overestimate his abilities. Sure, his upside is second to none in this league, but frankly, he has not turned into as dominating a safety as one would hope at this point in his career considering that sort of talent that he has in his little pinky toe. I suspect he's going to continue to get better, but if by the end of this year, we're not making statements that he's a arguably the best safety in the NFL, then he's a disappointment IMO.

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