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 Post subject: Marcus Vick will impress
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:29 pm 
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- From Bruce Feldman's Insider BLOG for CFB. He's to top ACC cover man in my opinion, and usually writes for the Miami-Herald. Either way you cut it, Marcus can play, so honestly none of these comments are surprising if you watched all his VT games this past year.


Trainer: Marcus Vick will impress
posted: Saturday, February 11, 2006 | Feedback

Marcus Vick is going to dazzle a whole bunch of NFL personnel types at the NFL combine later this month. That's Chip Smith's take. Smith tends to have a good handle on these kinds of things since as the founder of Competitive Edge Sports, he has trained more than 600 players who have played in the NFL.

"If Marcus doesn't set some combine records, I'd be shocked," Smith said Friday night.

Vick has been training every day with Smith for the past five weeks at the sprawling Competitive Edge complex in the Atlanta area, just a mile from where Marcus is staying at his big brother Michael's house. The workout sessions last six hours a day, with two-hour installments of weight work, speed work and QB drills with veteran quarterback coach Roger Theder.

"From an athletic standpoint, he is unbelievable," Smith says. "And if he's not the best athlete at the combine, he is going to be in the top five.
"I had Antwaan Randle El here and I love Antwaan, but Marcus Vick is five times quicker than Antwaan."

Smith, who has trained Champ Bailey and Brian Urlacher among others, points to the NFL "L-drill" or 3-cone drill, which gauges an athlete's ability to change direction. Smith says former Dallas Cowboys first-round CB Terence Newman was the best he'd ever seen, clocking a 6.50. Bailey was a 6.80 and typical for the position is 7.20. Vick's time: 6.53.

According to Smith, when Vick arrived at Competitive Edge, he was running the forty in the high-4.3s. Two weeks ago, when Smith tested him, Vick was down to the low-4.3s/high-4.2s.

Smith says he's been equally floored by Vick's personality. "He is diametrically opposite of what I imagined he was," he said. "And his work ethic has been tremendous."

Of course, given Vick's past, most notably his recent dismissal from Tech's program, Smith said he had reservations about taking Vick in after the QB's agent, Larry Woodward, called him. Since Smith already had three former Hokies he was training -- Mike Imoh, Jonathan Lewis and Will Montgomery, he sat down individually with all three asking about what Vick was really like. Each spoke about Vick being an incredibly hard worker and a good teammate. Said he was very misunderstood.

Smith told Vick his ground rules: Always be on time; no excuses; do the work; and do it with a "cheerful attitude." The focus, he said, would be on Marcus. Not on Michael. Not on Virginia Tech. Not on his legal issues.
Smith went on to explain to Vick he could be his biggest ally or his worst enemy. "I am going to tell the truth when the scouts and GMs ask," Smith said, adding that he could "start this healing process right away."

The understanding was Vick only could control his workout in Indy (Smith says Vick will do everything at the combine) and his attitude, and apparently, the former Hokie QB has jumped in with both feet.

My take on all this: The NFL is notorious for taking guys based on potential and I don't think it's a stretch to think that if Vick puts on a show, he might vault into the end of the first day of the draft or to the top of the fourth round. Some may say the Maurice Clarett saga has left a bad taste in people's mouths, but I just don't think the NFL mindset operates like that. More important, Clarett added question marks to his résumé at the combine, by running slow and quitting drills.
Smith practically guarantees Vick will do the opposite.

Teams will gamble if the "upside" seems worth it. Anyone who has seen a lot of Vick in person knows he has the kind of tools to force a few people to consider rolling the dice. The hook in all this is that as a quarterback prospect, he would have to learn the system for a couple of seasons anyhow. If he isn't mature enough to stay focused on the game, then he'll be dumped. If not, someone probably landed a first-round talent for the price of a fourth-rounder. That's a pretty tasty deal given first-round QBs seem to be a 50-50 proposition anyhow. Better still, Vick also could be a real weapon as Randle El was often deployed in Pittsburgh with trick plays.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:56 pm 
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I'm still of the mindset that most teams will be looking to move Vick to WR. At that position, his "maturity" (or lack thereof) is not going to be a huge hindrance.

Although he projects much better to the NFL at this point in his career than his brother did, I don't think teams are going to want to put that sort of investment in him as a passer. A good example is Adrian McPherson. Although most of the buzz about him in the month or so leading up to the draft was that he was good enough to go on Day 1 now as a QB. But did he? No, he "fell" to Round 5.

For Vick, I would be surprised as a QB if he went anywhere before Round 6 or 7. Despite his gifts, I think teams will go the more conservative approach in that if they want a middle round mobile QB, they'll take their chances on Omar Jacobs, Brett Basanez, D.J. Shockley, and Barrick Nealy, players that don't have nearly the baggage Vick does.

Instead, Vick has played some WR, and I would suspect that is what a lot of teams will see him as. A WR. At about 6-0/215, he has the size, and if these reports are correct his athleticism is definitely with the elite at that position.

If he does have as impressive a Combine as this article is stating, then I would suspect he would have done enough that maybe some team is going to take a chance on him near the end of Round 3. Otherwise, he's probably going to go in Round 4.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:45 pm 
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I agree on some things and disagree on others. To me theres a difference at being "projected" at WR, and having "played" QB at a high level. The only time he played WR with any actual playing time was back in 2003 against Cal I believe in VT's bowl game. He did play very well then, but with his tools for QB, I think WR's a waste. I think the obvious issue is can he handle the maturity of QB.

Considering appx. 50% of QB's drafted in the FIRST rounds don't pan out, I can easily see some team taking him in the 4th (hell Clarett did bad at the combine and still got the Broncos to spend a third) and putting him third on the depth chart at QB. If he matures at QB, then you've got the steal of the draft. Otherwise, then I would look at another position.

Watch what happens. He'll go to the combine and everyone will be back on the bandwagon. Remember how Matt Jones "combined" himself into the first round last year. Face it, people love freaky things while testing the combine, whether warranted or not.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:07 pm 
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I can see what both of you are saying. Something I'd like to point out is Marcus is not the kind of athlete that is going to be useful just sitting. That's pretty much what he's going to do if he's drafted at the QB position. I think teams that should be looking at him and the team that's going to pick him up should do so with the mind that he's going to contribute right away. Because that's EXACTLY what he's going to do.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:18 pm 
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Pudge wrote:

Although he projects much better to the NFL at this point in his career than his brother did, I don't think teams are going to want to put that sort of investment in him as a passer.


How does Marcus project better to the NFL than Michael? Mike was bigger, stronger, faster, more agile, and lead the nation in passing efficiency his Freshman year (still the only player to ever do that).

Marcus, Cromartie, Jason Allen, and the rest of these guys whose stock has plummetted will always have someone saying they look tremendous in workouts in order to raise their stock. I'm not saying we shouldn't look at these guys, but I wouldn't put too much faith into these reports.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:00 pm 
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How does Marcus project better to the NFL than Michael?

B/c if you watched all the VT games, it's pretty apparent that Marcus has a much more complete arm than Mike. By complete I mean he knows where he's going with the ball and it's there on time. He really does have an uncanny knack for accuracy, which is something Mike's still looking for. I know everyone remembers (although everyone acts like they forgot once he got into trouble) during the season everyone raving about how Marc looked better than Mike at QB.

If you throw in Marcus' speed, while not as freakishly explosive as Mike's, then thats how he gets into the same ballpark as Mike. I think considering the speed is kinda close, and Marcus arm looks better than Mike's in game conditions, thats where the projection comes from. Just imagine Mike with a little less freak speed, but an arm tahts accurate, strong and can make all the throws.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:32 pm 
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widetrak21 wrote:
How does Marcus project better to the NFL than Michael?

B/c if you watched all the VT games, it's pretty apparent that Marcus has a much more complete arm than Mike. By complete I mean he knows where he's going with the ball and it's there on time. He really does have an uncanny knack for accuracy, which is something Mike's still looking for. I know everyone remembers (although everyone acts like they forgot once he got into trouble) during the season everyone raving about how Marc looked better than Mike at QB.

If you throw in Marcus' speed, while not as freakishly explosive as Mike's, then thats how he gets into the same ballpark as Mike. I think considering the speed is kinda close, and Marcus arm looks better than Mike's in game conditions, thats where the projection comes from. Just imagine Mike with a little less freak speed, but an arm tahts accurate, strong and can make all the throws.


I remember the little kids over at AFMB saying things to that extent, but not here. He isn't the passer, nor the runner, Mike was coming out of college. Sure, Marcus threw the ball decent against the scrubbier teams in the ACC, but it is apparent to me that people have forgotten what kind of player Michael was in high school. We've already had this ridiculous discussion at AFMB and could do without this nonsense here.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:45 am 
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Comp, although Mike definitely has Marcus on the physical aspects of hte game, Marcus is just much better than MIke as a passer.

Going through progressions was something totally new to Mike when he came to the Falcons. Marcus has been doing that since he first took the field at VT. I'm not saying he's an expert at it, because he has quite a road ahead of him before I'd call him a quality NFL passer, but his ability in that area at this point compares to where big bro was entering his 2nd year in the NFL.

Also Marcus is much more comfortable making throws from the pocket than Mike was. I would say Marcus' pocket presence is about on par with where Mike's was at the end of last season.

Mike in college and in his first few years in the NFL was very quick to tuck and run when his first option was not open. Marcus is not the same, and I would say overall that Marcus' abilities as of now compare to where Vick was at the end of his first year in the league.

But again, I think any team would be dim to think of Marcus as a future franchise QB for them. Sure, he's not the first young QB to make mistakes, but I'm not sure he still gets it.

Let's assume for a moment that the gun charges are completely baseless. He's still a huge question mark in my mind. The leg stomping incident is the biggest factor in my mind. He let his passion and emotions take over his brain in probably the biggest game of his career. Is that the kind of leader you want for your football team?

I won't say that Marcus would be a bad NFL quarterback. But it's those types of mental mistakes which he has displayed up until this point in his life that are likely to follow him into the NFL and prevent him from going from a quality starter to a championship caliber starter. At this point, Marcus seems a lot like his cousin Aaron Brooks. Immensely talented player that when his A game is on, he's one of the 5-10 best QBs in the league. But he's a guy that is never going to be an elite passer despite his upside because he always breaks down when his team needs him the most.

As for being a backup here in Atlanta. I hope the Falcons don't even look at him as a QB. That would be a waste of resources to develop him when we know he's never going to be a top QB. Why not put those resources into someone actually worth it.

Now, as I've said before, if Marcus is still avaliable come the second day, I think the Falcons should look at him as a developmental WR. But I don't think the Falcons will even throw a few sniffs at him, just so Mora/McKay can prevent the impression that Michael Vick carries a lot of weight with the powers that be. It inherently becomes a political decision, rather than a football one.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:50 am 
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I remember the little kids over at AFMB saying things to that extent, but not here. He isn't the passer, nor the runner, Mike was coming out of college. Sure, Marcus threw the ball decent against the scrubbier teams in the ACC, but it is apparent to me that people have forgotten what kind of player Michael was in high school. We've already had this ridiculous discussion at AFMB and could do without this nonsense here.


Obviously you haven't seen the VT games or you'd feel differently. You prob only saw the Miami game like everyone else whose a Marcus "expert". I've seen every VT game for the last 9+ years, so I certainly feel more qualified to give an opinion, than yours with no backbone to it.

Did you know VT allowed Marcus to check into his own plays for most of this year. Did you know for most of the season he was the NCAA 2nd rated passer for efficiency for the whole country. Did you know that when Mike was there, they would only let him read half of the field on passing downs. Ie. He rolls to the left, so he would only have to read half the defense. So don't pretend you know the difference when its obvious you don't. Nobodies slighting Mike for what he does, or did in college, just that Marcus' is gonna make his mark one way or another. If you don't like the thread, don't comment.

I think Pudge already summed it up...
Comp, although Mike definitely has Marcus on the physical aspects of hte game, Marcus is just much better than MIke as a passer.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:35 pm 
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I love the massive arguments over Marcus Vick. If his last name wasn't Vick he wouldn't be on our radars.

The kid is a headcase and he will probably make a team very happy and very angry all at the sametime.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:25 pm 
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widetrak21 wrote:
I remember the little kids over at AFMB saying things to that extent, but not here. He isn't the passer, nor the runner, Mike was coming out of college. Sure, Marcus threw the ball decent against the scrubbier teams in the ACC, but it is apparent to me that people have forgotten what kind of player Michael was in high school. We've already had this ridiculous discussion at AFMB and could do without this nonsense here.


Obviously you haven't seen the VT games or you'd feel differently. You prob only saw the Miami game like everyone else whose a Marcus "expert". I've seen every VT game for the last 9+ years, so I certainly feel more qualified to give an opinion, than yours with no backbone to it.

Did you know VT allowed Marcus to check into his own plays for most of this year. Did you know for most of the season he was the NCAA 2nd rated passer for efficiency for the whole country. Did you know that when Mike was there, they would only let him read half of the field on passing downs. Ie. He rolls to the left, so he would only have to read half the defense. So don't pretend you know the difference when its obvious you don't. Nobodies slighting Mike for what he does, or did in college, just that Marcus' is gonna make his mark one way or another. If you don't like the thread, don't comment.

I think Pudge already summed it up...
Comp, although Mike definitely has Marcus on the physical aspects of hte game, Marcus is just much better than MIke as a passer.


Yeah you got me there, I haven't seen Marcus against anyone but Miami :roll: . Yeah he looked good against the scrub teams as I said before, but we're talking about who is the better prospect coming out of college. You seem to really believe what you're saying about Vick only reading half of the field, as if he always rolled out in college and that is so far from the truth you'd have to be Stretch Armstrong to reach for that. Michael threw out of the pocket a majority of the time, and he did so better than Marcus did. If you've seen every game for 9+ years then how can you post this drivel about Michael reading half the field? :D Either way, if Michael wasn't ALLOWED to read any of the defense, he still put up the best passing efficiency numbers in the NCAA as a Freshman and carried the lowly VaTech Hokies to their first National Championship game. Marcus is a poor man's Donovan McNabb at best, which means he probably would have gone in the 2nd or 3rd round without his problems. Don't pretend to know everything, because you don't. Don't begin to even try to pretend to know what I have seen and what I know, because you obviously have no clue. Coming out of college, Michael Vick was comparable to John Elway & Marcus Vick is comparable to Quincy Carter.

And thanks, but I don't need Pudge to tell me what to think about Vick, I've already had it out with most of the guys here about Michael during the season. Let's just say I don't see eye to eye with any of you on the subject at all.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:19 pm 
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Lowly Hokies huh, funny considering they've had the 6th best CFB record in the last 11 years with 12 straight bowl games. Heres the bottom line, cause I think you see this as an attack on Michael somehow. I certainly feel qualified considering I graduated from VT during Mike's years there. I was there in person when he flipped over JMU in his first freshman game.

VT's own RB/Asst. Head coach Billy Hite has said repeatidly, that "nobody had any idea what we went through with Mike in the beginning. We'd call a play to the left, he'd screw it up and run 80 yards around the right side for a TD. To help we only let him read half of the defense for each play to maximize his athleticism. The thing was, he was so athletic that nobody ever noticed the difference."

But the weird things is it's like you don't recognize that Mike has a little trouble with offensive concepts. I wish he was better, but he's just not a supremely cerebral QB like Manning. I mean we did just have the comment from last week about him and our offense, right? lol.

So lets get off the streach armstrong talk will we. My only point was Marcus has has similiar skill set and I bet he makes him mark in the NFL at QB.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:23 pm 
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dirtybirdnw wrote:
I love the massive arguments over Marcus Vick. If his last name wasn't Vick he wouldn't be on our radars.

The kid is a headcase and he will probably make a team very happy and very angry all at the sametime.


I have to agree with this. These problems of his, show he has a short fuse and is liable to lose control at any moment things don't go his way.

Yes he is very talented, but, from what I saw, he is just as liable to panic in situations and give the ball away. He is very erratic, just like his brother. ONe game he looks pro caliber, the next he looks high school.

Talent is not the issue, maturity and mental toughness are.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:56 pm 
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widetrak21 wrote:
Lowly Hokies huh, funny considering they've had the 6th best CFB record in the last 11 years with 12 straight bowl games. Heres the bottom line, cause I think you see this as an attack on Michael somehow. I certainly feel qualified considering I graduated from VT during Mike's years there. I was there in person when he flipped over JMU in his first freshman game.

VT's own RB/Asst. Head coach Billy Hite has said repeatidly, that "nobody had any idea what we went through with Mike in the beginning. We'd call a play to the left, he'd screw it up and run 80 yards around the right side for a TD. To help we only let him read half of the defense for each play to maximize his athleticism. The thing was, he was so athletic that nobody ever noticed the difference."

But the weird things is it's like you don't recognize that Mike has a little trouble with offensive concepts. I wish he was better, but he's just not a supremely cerebral QB like Manning. I mean we did just have the comment from last week about him and our offense, right? lol.

So lets get off the streach armstrong talk will we. My only point was Marcus has has similiar skill set and I bet he makes him mark in the NFL at QB.


No, the argument was you saying that Marcus was a better prospect coming out than Michael was. I don't see that as an attack on Michael as much as I see it as a ridiculous argument made from some odd state of dislogic that I cannot comprehend. The fact that you go on to say ridiculous things about Mike's mental ability only makes it worse. Sure, Marcus could make a mark in the NFL in a lot of ways, he is a gifted athlete, but in no way is he the kind of prospect Michael was coming out.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:17 am 
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If your argument is based on which of the two brothers I'd be more willing to draft based on where Michael was in 2001 and Marcus is now in 2006, then yes, Comp you are right Michael si the better prospect. He doesn't have the legal/maturity baggage, and his upside is higher.

But if I'm making the judgement on who is the better passer (Michael '01 vs. Marcus '06), then Marcus is significantly the better prospect.

Baggage aside, if I'm making the judgement of which of the two I'd rather invest in as my franchise QB, then I'm taking Marcus. His learning curve is significantly less. Partly because Beamer & Co. knew better how to handle him, and not to mention the help he was getting from older bro from the start. Basically older bro was helping him become a better NFL prospect, while older bro during his days at Tech, just seemed to be focusing on being the best college QB out there.

So I'm saying if we take away the baggage, I'm going to take Marcus before I take Michael. But since we can't take away the baggage, it's sorta a moot argument.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:25 pm 
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I didn't get the opportunity to watch Mike play at VT all that much, though I did get to see some of his games. I did however get to see Marcus play most of his games and just from where i was sitting Marcus looked more comfortable and decisive in the pocket this last year at VT than Mike did this last season in ATL....

Mike ain't the brightest crayon Incomp, not trying to take anything away from him, he's a pretty good player with the potential to be one of the best of all time, but he isn't exactly a cerebral QB. He depends on his athleticism to get him out of jams, not his knowledge of the game. I mean come on it's painfully obvious at times that Mike is playing the game as if it were back yard ball. Personally I like to watch it because it's exciting, dyanmic, and unpredictable.

I mean there are still a lot of plays we run where we only ask Mike to read half the field. All those roll-outs we run where Mike drops the ball off to a wr on a 10 yard out, yeah he's only reading half the field. I am fine with that becuase if there isn't someone to throw to then Mike can just run it. He can get away with not being the smartest QB because he's fast.

Marcus one the other hand, well from what I've seen at least looks like his first inclination is to throw the ball and his second option is to run. That alone makes him a bit more NFL ready that Mike was. Marcus exhibits a pretty decent touch pass which is something Mike still can't do.

I am with Pudge when he says minus all the maturity and off the field issues, if given the choice between the two I'd take Marcus. But also like he said we can't just get rid of those issues so the argument is a moot point.

Incomp I hate to see you get so riled up about these things, and it is true that you and most of the people on this board don't see eye to eye on this topic (or any other topic about Vick for that matter), but at some point you have to take off those red and black glasses and look at these guys for what they are.


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I don't have red & black glasses, I have white ones. And being a white guy from Georgia, I have seen enough of this bullshit in every damned message board & heard it in every damned barbershop that it makes me sick. A bunch of rednecks & Uncle Toms who know little to nothing about football criticizing a man's intelligence because he throws a pick, or slips up & says something stupid in an interview, is sickening to me. Yeah let's talk about cerebral QB's for a few minutes. Mr Cerebral, Peyton Manning, looked brilliant staring down the barrel of the Steelers defense, huh? Tom Brady looked really smart throwing those 3 picks to Greg Wesley in the Chiefs game, huh? But you know, he's white & he's got 3 rings, so he was just trying to make some plays. Elway & Favre used to do the same crap Vick does, but they're considered gunslingers, while Vick's intelligence is questioned. If you would take Marcus over Michael, without Marcus' baggage, then you're an idiot. Vick has a much stronger arm, much better speed, and good accuracy when Alex Brown isn't sitting on his neck after every play. Michael lead the nation in passing efficiency as a 19 year old kid, so how can you in your right mind say you would take Marcus over him? Is Mike perfect? Of course not? Could the Falcons have gone to the NFCCG last year with anyone at QB but Vick? Not even close.

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The_Incomparable wrote:
I don't have red & black glasses, I have white ones. And being a white guy from Georgia, I have seen enough of this bullshit in every damned message board & heard it in every damned barbershop that it makes me sick. A bunch of rednecks & Uncle Toms who know little to nothing about football criticizing a man's intelligence because he throws a pick, or slips up & says something stupid in an interview, is sickening to me. Yeah let's talk about cerebral QB's for a few minutes. Mr Cerebral, Peyton Manning, looked brilliant staring down the barrel of the Steelers defense, huh? Tom Brady looked really smart throwing those 3 picks to Greg Wesley in the Chiefs game, huh? But you know, he's white & he's got 3 rings, so he was just trying to make some plays. Elway & Favre used to do the same crap Vick does, but they're considered gunslingers, while Vick's intelligence is questioned. If you would take Marcus over Michael, without Marcus' baggage, then you're an idiot. Vick has a much stronger arm, much better speed, and good accuracy when Alex Brown isn't sitting on his neck after every play. Michael lead the nation in passing efficiency as a 19 year old kid, so how can you in your right mind say you would take Marcus over him? Is Mike perfect? Of course not? Could the Falcons have gone to the NFCCG last year with anyone at QB but Vick? Not even close.




ok...
1) Let's not make this a racial debate...race has nothing to do with it at all....as another white man from GA I here the race thing all the time and it bothers me as much as it does you...I am equally disgusted with the infestation of racists and bigots as you are...however, anyone who is looking at Vicks career OBJECTIVELY can't miss the plethora of terrible decisions he makes...you can't miss the totally lost and confused look on his face when a defense takes the threat of him running away from him...you can't miss the fact he looks to be physically incapable of throwing a touch pass...you can't overlook the fact that he can't consistantly complete a routine pass to a RB out of the back field...I mean he almost always over throws swing passes, and those are passes I could make...that's where my concern lies...
2) If you want to reference Tom Brady and Peyton Manning then I am all for it...Sure Brady threw three picks against KC, but you know what else he has three of? Sure Peyton looks totally befuzzled against Pitt, but they won 13 straight before that...one bad game doesn't make a player bad...I make my judgement from all the games I've watched Vick play in since we drafted him (and I have yet to miss one) and from that wealth of film and material is pretty apparent Vick is still leaning on his athleticism to get him by...To me it looks like he doesn't spend time in the film room and just expects to be able to go out and do his thing against anyone anytime...well that don't cut it in the NFL...

Now to clarify myself....I don't want Vick going anywhere, I am not calling for his job, and I am still a HUGE Vick fan...but he's gotta take a few more steps forward...he's been a pro for 5 years now and he's not really much better than he was when he was a rookie....In fact you could make an argument he's regressing...His QB rating has gone down every year he's played a majority of the season, his TD to INT ratio hasn't show any improvement at all, and he hasn't show me he understands how to read a defense any better now than when he got out of college....I just want our team to win games...that's all I want...and Vick (and the rest of the team for that matter, but in my eyes the star QB has to set the bar for the rest of the team) has to put some more time into preparing or he's never gonna scratch the surface of his immense potential...


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 6:27 pm 
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Thank you for grabbing the baton SteveO, I agree completely.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:51 pm 
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1) I can recall a number of times where he has thrown touch passes beautifully. I can recall a number of times when he made the perfect decision. I've seen him do just about everything you would ever want a QB to do, and I saw him do it against the Bucs finally this year. The only real argument here is consistency, which is what Elway struggled with pretty much his entire career. Swing passes are not easy throws to make, and no you could not consistently hit them because not a lot of professional QB's can; also take into account the number of times a D lineman is swinging from him when he does throw it. Let's not forget that Vick is only 25 years old and has a lot of progress to be made as well.

2) Again, that is all consistency & supporting cast. Manning looked like crap in that game because his line had trouble with the Pitt line, which is something Vick struggled with most of the games he has played here. Brady threw those picks because the Pats were forced to throw & he was being pressured. The underlying fact here is that if you put any QB in this league onto the Falcons' offense, they would not look very good at all. Between our garbage, turnstyle line, extremely young WR's, and inconsistent running game; I would be shocked if Manning could do much better than Vick.

One thing that bothers me about this whole argument is you guys keep saying you've seen all these games as if you are the only ones. Millions of people watch these games, me included, and I just won't agree with any of the junk you're talking about. Vick looks lost & confused? I mean do you have access to Mr. DeMille's close-up camera on closed circuit TV or something? Vick's been a pro for 5 years huh? Well he's only played for 3 years and has 2 playoff appearances already, for perhaps the worst franchise in the NFC over the last 40 years. How would YOU know if he knows how to read a defense any better than he did coming out of college? Are you Greg Knapp? Are you Jim Mora?

All I am reading is the same garbage here that I have to wade through over at AFMB just to find a post worth replying to. Vick threw for over 500 yards and multiple TD's against the Tampa Bay Bucs this year, TAMPA BAY, and if that isn't a big improvement then nothing is. But I guess being able to read their defense had nothing to do with it. What would be an improvement for you? Maybe he could throw for 3000 yards? Maybe he could throw for 25 TD's? Maybe he could put up a 100 passer rating for the year? You know what, I would settle for him getting the 450 to 500 attempts that every other 100 million dollar QB gets in this league. Go look at the numbers for yourself.

Go look at Elway's stats & think about how stupid some Denver fans must have felt when 1993 rolled around:
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=64

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:04 pm 
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You are correct in that the rest of our offense doesn't exactly make it easy on Vick, but what kills me is when I see him get plenty of time in the pocket, a reciever gets open, and Vick overthrows him...I don't expect Vick to put every ball right on a wr's numbers but he makes the easy throw about 50% of the time I'd say...that number has to be a lot higher...

and yes I know millions of people watch the games, and millions of people are calling Vick out for not living up to his potential...coincidence?

and I played QB once upon a time, long long ago, and the only pass I could consistantly make was the one where I hit my rb while he standing out in the flat all by himself...it's not a hard throw to make....now I can see instances where that throw could be complicated by any number of factors but every single game I watch, EVERY SINGLE ONE I see Vick will miss Dunn or Griffith out of the back field by a mile...it may only happend once or twice in the game, but it happens EVERY GAME...

yes I've seen Vick throw a sweet touch pass, every now and then....but for every sweet pass there are two bad ones....that's what I want to see eliminated....

and no...I am not Greg Knapp, I am not Jim Mora....what I am is a fan with a rather strong knowledge of the game and I can spot a player who is just winging it...Vick is just winging it half the time.....


I gotta run at the moment but I will be back in a couple of hours to wrap this up....


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:50 pm 
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I did a study last year for the first half of the season where it showed Vick was actually on target about 70% of the time, as compared to Manning's & Brady's 80 & 83%. People are going to call Vick out for any reason they can find, whether it is based in logic or not. Being a #1 pick carries that burden, being a $130million QB carries that burden, being black also fuels that fire as well, and not putting up great numbers will also add feul to the fire. Still, you see this all the time with terrible franchises where the fans & the FO constantly criticise young players only to see them leave a la Thomas Jones. This is something Dennis Green commented on this season when the Cardinals fans were calling for JJ Arrington's head, so in turn he pointed out to them how stupid they were to ride Thomas Jones out of town & straight to Chicago where he has been a high quality player. Millions of people do not run football teams, they do not own football teams, nor do they have consultants who will discuss matters with them individually.

A swing pass is where you hit the RB in stride as he is getting outside & turning upfield, if you've practiced this pass you should know that already. Since you profess to know so much about whether Vick is winging it, I would think you would know what a swing pass is. Again, Elway was over 30 when he finally put it all together & put up impressive numbers. The simple fact is that you guys are all asking for too much given the circumstances. Michael has proven he has greatness within and he is willing to work at it, and he is only 25. Let's have this discussion in 2011 when it is a valid argument for one side or the other, because right now it is just too early to know for sure. I mean the Broncos drafted Tommy Massox the year before Elway finally broke out, so that goes to show you that nobody was convinced Elway could get it done at that point. The funny thing is that Elway wasn't the one who actually got it done in the end. They put together a terrific O line, got a HoF talented back, and put some pieces on that Defense (Stave Atwater, Romanowski, etc.) in order to win a championship. Elway was almost an afterthought in those games, and they were able to run on a D that NOBODY thought ANYONE could run on (Green Bay)....unlike the Falcons.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:18 pm 
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The_Incomparable wrote:
Mr Cerebral, Peyton Manning, looked brilliant staring down the barrel of the Steelers defense, huh?


So how can you predict Mike will do better against there D...bad comparison

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:28 pm 
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mickvick302 wrote:
The_Incomparable wrote:
Mr Cerebral, Peyton Manning, looked brilliant staring down the barrel of the Steelers defense, huh?


So how can you predict Mike will do better against there D...bad comparison


Because he already did back when he played them. There is only a couple different players on that D from then to now.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:32 pm 
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1) I know what a GD swing pass is, I simplified it for the purpose of my argument....none the less it's not really that hard of a pass to complete....a 15 yard out is a hard pass to complete...nailing a wr in the numbers on a crossing route is a hard pass to complete...

2) Who said I think Elway is this all time super QB....he was good, in fact he was just a bit better than good, but I was one of those people when he got elected to the HOF that was questioning his career stats....

3)Yes I am sure Vick faces more criticism because he was a top pick, but it's still not an excuse. He's facing criticism because he's not playing up to his ability. That's why I am criticising him. He's not playing like a first overall pick. Do I think he will get there, well I think he will, and I am rooting for him to get there....but he's got a long way to go still....

4) By 2011 Vicks career will be in it's twilight, or at least getting really really close to that point....that's a bit late to start questioning whether or not he was a good pick or not...

5) I appreciate everything Vick has done for the football fans in this city, but he's still got a lot of work to do and whatever he's doing to prepare for games isn't enough because he's only gotten marginally better since we drafted him...all excuses aside this is the year he breaks out or else there are going to be a lot of fans in ATL calling for whoever #2 is........


either way I am gonna let this argument lie because ultimately we are gonna just walk in circles....you be the staunch, never-yeilding Vick supporter you've been since you got here....it's a good thing....we need people who show such unyeilding support for our players....and I will continue to be the occasional smart azz that pops in with my $.02 every now and again...

either way we both are hoping for the same thing and that's a record better than 8-8, and I for one don't care one bit how we get there....


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