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 Post subject: Possible future moves to free up money,Brooking,Webster etc
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:12 am 
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I know that Pudge and Capologist usually go through this after the season about hoe long each player is signed and what the cap ramifications are if the are cut in a particular year until there contract is up.My question is what players in the future do you see being cut,I am thinking 1 to or 3 yrs from now and how would it help the falcon's in terms of freeing money up? A few players in mind are Peerless Price,Keith Brooking since we have Boley,Beck,Demario,Reese,Hartwell and Webster.Also Weiner seem to be key players who may be cut or not resigned .Vick's contract is huge but there must be some way to add in the next few years a offensive linemen,corner,def end etc etc..More than likely corners are way overpriced so you have to draft them,most clubs franchise there starting off tackles and def ends are also franchised.I wonder if free agency to free money up is that cost effective since alot of clubs franchise there players?

We have got to get more picks in the draft and draft quality players.Philly has done it and that is why they are 15 million under the cap.Signing players like Price,Webster,Brooking and I wonder Dunn to contracts that the production does not live up to the contract hurts the team.Dunn produces but running backs are not that hard to find.Cost effectiveness will keep teams competitve for years if there franchise is run the right way.I hope we are going in that direction and the way to do it is solid scouting and signing the right free agents without overpaying.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:26 am 
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I'm still working on new cap numbers (they aren't as easy to get as they have been in the past) but off the top I'd say Price, Weiner, and Brady Smith...


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 Post subject: Brooking
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:44 pm 
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Wouldn't getting rid of Brooking be like cutting Tuggle? Some things might make sense inside 'the box' but you can't understand the impact on fan support and team chem, know what I mean?

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 Post subject: Brooking is a home gorwn product but if it makes the team be
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:28 pm 
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I don't see any reason to hang onto a player just because he is a home grown product coming from georgia tech yet leave a possible more talanted player on the bench.Pro sports is hard economics if a team has a player that may be able to produce almost as much if not better than the star athlete but for alot less in money teams will cut the star athlete.I understand Brooking's impact for bringing in georgia fans but if we need help on off line,corner,def line et cetc and we have quality players at linebacker why wouldn't the falcon's consider cutting brooking in a few years? Boley,Hartwell,D Williams,Beck,Reese are a quality group.True Boley and Beck have not played a single NFL down but as the year progresses and we see Boley making big plays aloong with the others the thought may cross some management minds in a few years at least.


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 Post subject: Brooking has to play like a man on a mission
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:31 pm 
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We saw in the NFC championship a few times Brooking could not make the tackle even though he had the angle against philly players.For Brooking or any star to remain in a few years they will have to play at a level where no other linebacker can match them in production and make the big plays when it counts.Big players play in big games I didn't see that from brooking in philly.That is what Brooking must do for the Falcon's to keep him in a few years.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:53 pm 
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Brooking is Mr. Georgia and for that alone I would think it is a long shot for the Falcons to ever consider cutting him. Heck the Blazers & Damon Stoudamire are a great example of this. Portland wouldn't dare cut Stoudamire despite all his problems until his contract expired. Once that happend Damon walked without any ire towards the team. Brooking won't get get... he may not get resigned but he won't get cut. Brooking may not be the Pro Bowl player he once was but he's still better then 80% of the linebackers in the NFL. More then that he his a leader on this team and a field general.

Personally I think it is irresponsible for people to declare Boley & Beck good enough to start in the NFL after seeing good performances against NFL scrubs. Talk about the eggs before the chicken. I want to see Boley & Beck get a sack, make the tackle, and block a pass, prove they are worthy before we even consider talking about axing one of the best linebackers in Falcon history. I had a sour taste in my mouth with what they did to Tuggle and if they did that to Brooking the Falcons could suffer a decent sized loss of fans if they did that to Brooking.

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 Post subject: Good points well taken
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:15 am 
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I understand that keeping Brooking because he is better than 80% of the league linebackers now is important,but in a few years when he is making tons of money and another player like a Boles or Beck who needs an opportunity after proving they can play do they continue to sit on the bench at a much lower price than brooking?For Brooking to contimue to make the type of money he will make in a few years he is going to need a bigger impact.Tuggle was a great player and was the heart of the falcon defense,but remember he was on many poor teams.Brooking is on a team with a number of top quality players and if a team has (provided Boles and Beck develop) the stength at linebacker and needs help somewhere else you better believe that Brooking would be a player that could be cut.What about Dunn? He not only is a player who produces but has great off the field accomplishments.Here we have Duckett not getting his opportunity and it will come to a head after this year where Dunn could become an exfalcon simply because he makes to much.

Does Brooking deserve the money he is making compared to other top linebackers? No.When Takeo Spikes was a free agent many people on this board wanted spikes over brooking because Spikes is more of an impact player.Brooking got a fat contract not only for his ability but because he is a georgia boy.Fans will come if you produce a winner and Mckay is building a team even without the Georgia boy could still win so keeping Brooking becomes less of a factor in the future.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:37 am 
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Brooking is definitely not beyond being dumped. Remember, new coach, new GM, they have no emotional stock in him. They did not draft him or sign him to a huge contract.

Also factor in the fact that the team brought in another potential star LB in Hartwell. If Hartwell is as successful in Atlanta as many people think he can be (he is after all a Ray Lewis-type player) and emerges as an elite MLB over the next 2-3 years, the team will no longer have a PR issue with cutting Brooking.

The truth of the matter is that not as many fans (at least those that seem to be more outspoken) are infatuated with Brooking as it was with Tuggle. As scout said, Tuggle was a star on bad defenses. Brooking is a star on good defenses.

Brooking is not going to be dumped in the very near future, but the team has oddly been recruited Brooking-type players in the past 2 drafts. The team was very well aware that Demorrio WIlliams was a WLB when they drafted him, thinking he was a Derrick Brooks-like player, something Mora & McKay would rather see in a Falcon uniform. Boley is in the same mold, and Beck has the sort of balls-out playing style that Brooking has. Bring in Reese and Hartwell, and you have the emotional support to back it up. If you dig deep, the writing is already on the wall that Brookign is on the way out.

He can get cut. But it all depends on his play over the next 2 or so years, and how well other players like Williams, Boley, and Beck develop. Ideally, 2 of those 3 players will develop into quality starters and join Hartwell in the starting lineup and the clamor over cutting a player like Keith Brooking will become minimal because most fans recognize the business aspect and in the salary cap era, unless you are a superstar QB, there is no loyalty from the team. Think about, the elite half dozen or so QBs out there (Vick, Brady, Favre, Culpepper, McNabb, Manning) are really the only "un-cuttable" players out there. Even guys like Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders, Jerry Rice, etc. are sure Hall of Famer guys, and although the majority may hate it, the majority understand the law to the NFL game, that says you can only play as long as you produce, and unless you play that "pivotal" QB position that all football people seem to rest success upon, you aren't "above the law."

Brooking needs to continue to play at a Pro Bowl level, which only will help him retain longevity in Atlanta. Two or so more Pro Bowls over the next 3 years, and you may see the team unable to justify cutting him. But if 2004 is his last Pro Bowl in the near future, then the team has more than enough reason to release him.

But to answer scout's original question, the truth of the matter is that I don't see any player on this team as of right now that is uncuttable besides Vick. I would say at this point that D-lo, Crump, and Kerney, are next to him in the least likely to be cut over the next 5 years, but I wouldn't say it's impossible.

Dunn could possibly be gone after this year, as could Weiner, Brady Smith, and Duckett. Brooking, Jenkins, Webster, and Coleman are prominent players that I could potentially see falling out of favor over the 2-3 years.

The bottom line is basically at the high salaries many of these guys are making, you are one average or underachieving season away from being on the outs. If the Bucs and Ravens are maneuvering as we speak to get rid of Derrick Brooks and Ray Lewis, you know Keith Brooking is not untouchable.

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 Post subject: Ok Pudge
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:37 am 
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Ok Pudge and Scout I certainly get your point, but again I have to fall back to you with your numbers game. Salary cap, 'lost a step', stats from year to year, Pro Bowls... these are things that science can hang their hats on. 80%? What is that, really? The team has proven that we are cutting guys with no chemistry, not guys with better talent. Phil Simms once said that he reached a point in his career when there was no defense in the league he couldn't read and take apart, but by that time his body could no longer make the throw or move in the pocket. I understand that people get old and aren't the players they once were, but don't you think people in the locker room make a decision about people they want to follow, old warriors who play with everything they have left. Tuggle did this and guys followed him to a Super Bowl. You mention the Bucs, THE BUCS!, who also thought that they needed to dump an aging Warren Sapp and look what that did to their defense (get rid of Brooks and you might as well change their colors back to White/Orange). If the Ravens are stupid enough to get rid of Lewis then let them, but if you have ever been to a Ravens game and seen Ray get ready to 'protect his house' then you know what he brings to a team whether he is in a Pro Bowl or not.

I know what Brooking brings to the fans of Atlanta, and I can only assume that he has the same impact in the locker room and on the field. His body may not be what it once was but his mind is getting better and his ability to field a defense is as well. I guess we will get to see what way Mora and Mckay lean. Are they corporate 'This is a business' guys or do they 'feel' the game and take the chances that make ESPN insiders scratch their heads in wonder only to praise an odd choice later in a year like they were always on board.

MF1

BTW, Thanks for backing me on this Dirty.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:57 am 
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I certainly respect both Pudge & Scout but I noticed ALOT Of "what if and should be" and no "he will" in their statements. The original posts about cutting Brooking were in a near term context not the long term context their responses indicated. Brooking in another 3 years will likely be a shell of his former self I won't argue on that one. The original posts made it sound like people considered him a cap casualty next off-season or in the near term. Brooking is too much apart of the emotional core of this team. You can't count Reese as part of the emtional core at his advanced age. He has maybe 3 years left in the NFL and that is thanks to a career as an STer.

Hartwell should and likely will emerge as the leader of this team and I have every bit of faith that he should turn into a Ray Lewis type linebacker. This will enhance Brookings abilities just like Brooking enhanced is companions when he was the sole superstar on the defense. The team and talent on this team is improving but to call Boley & Beck capable of replacing Brooking in the next year or two is downright homerism. This team has great starting units but very weak overall backups. We all (including myself) believe losing one or two players won't be a big deal because we have Boley and Reese capable of coming in. But Boley isn't proven and Reese is old and has never really been a regular starter in his career. You have to question is stamina and ability to stay healthy taking any sort of regular starting position.

The team is headed in the right direction but lets not go hog wild trying to get rid top notch veteran defensive players. If you had a team of 20 somethings we would suck due to lack of experience.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:54 pm 
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Brooking signed a 7 year, 41 million dollar deal in 2003. 10.5 of that was a signing bonus. Do I expect Brooking to be playing here in 2010? No. I don't think he will be playing anywhere then, his body won't let him. But I do see him here for at least 3 more years any how. He's only 29 and to me, hasn't slowed down yet.


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 Post subject: Good debate I stand by my opinion
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:18 pm 
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Good conversation guys on Brooking,and I respect your opinions as well.There is something to be said for leaders,those players who through there play and personality get people to perform at a higher level than normal.I have no doubt Brooking is a leader but remember Hartwell is a leader also.A team cannot have enough leaders but also consider when I believe brooking could be a cap casualty in 2-3 yrs.It is possible he could hang on for a few more years and your right that Pudge and I were talking about Boley,Beck,Williams in terms of there potential and Brooking has done it to an extent.Remember this if the Falcon's make the playoffs and face the Philly's,Carolina whoever for the next 2-3 yrs and are defeated each time WITH BROOKING NOT MAKING AN IMPACT there is a more lielyhood he wold be cut.It also depends on the growth of Boley and Beck.If they don't live up to potential then Brooking probably stays but also consider Brooking to restructure his contract so the team can do more on acquiring free agents as opposed to being just cut.If Brooking plays all world in the playoffs it buys him time from being cut again 2-3 yrs and up to 5 yrs.

I don't have a vendetta against Brooking just the fact that teams look at the economics,the players who may take his place if they are less costly and have a similar impact, and what that player may bring to the community since brooking is from the Georgia area.That last factor may be viewed being at the bottom.Example

Brooking makes 4 million in 2007 doesn't play well in the playoffs for 2005 and 06 and boley comes on like gangbusters and cost 750,000.Does Brooking get cut so the team can use brooking's money to strengthen another position? You bet your saving 3.25 million,you have a player in boley that has produced like gangbusters needs time to fulfill potential so he starts.If Boley doesn't produce I bet brooking still is asked to redo his contract.Teams just can't have underperofrming players who make it to the playoffs year after year and do not live up to there hype.Once again,the falcons need to make it 2-3 or years in row for this to happen.Rarely is there loyalty between player and team.I bet Brooking would not even flinch if he though he was being underpaid to go somewhere else.On the other side teams watch the bottom line in economics to strengthen there organization.They hold no allegiance to players unless we are talking about a sure fire superstar like Vick!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:37 pm 
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IMO it is unfair to say "Brooking made no impact against Philly" because our entire defense made no impact against Philly. Our defense has never performed well against Philly and usually Westbrook is one of the big reasons we haven't. I'm thinking Hartwell should be able to fix much of that problem.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:01 pm 
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Brooking has been more than willing to work with the team as far as his contract goes. I'd venture a guess that he'd continue to do so until he retires.


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