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 Post subject: Fire Knapp Now Anemic Falcon Offense Here's Proof
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:09 pm 
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I was curious to see last years regualr season stats,playoff games and the first 2 games this year to see what quarters te falcon's scored,how many points,how many times they were shutout by quarter and how many times they scored over 7 points in a quarter.Needless to say I came up with some startling stats that I wanted to share with Falcon Fans.

Now ther have been 80 quarters played from begin of 2004 season,playoffs and this year.Here is the breakdown!

Times the falcons have been shut out in the quarter

!st quarter 2nd quarter 3rd quarter 4th quarter total shutout/Quarters
7/20 4/20 13/20 7/20 31/80

So 39% of time the falcon's have been shutout in the quarter out of 80 quarters...absoluely pitiful...do you realize this is almost 8 games worth of play out of 20 and the falcon's have been shutout!

Now for another starling stat times the falcon's have scored more than 7 points in a quarter

1st quarter 2nd quarter 3rd quarter 4th quarter Total quarters falcons score more 7
4/20 7/20 3/20 7/20 21/80

This is 26% of time the falcons have scored more than 7 points the rest less or zero....now how can a potential super bowl champion survive with an anemic offense such as this.It puts a tremendous pressure on the defense and the defense cannot bail out the falcon offense all the time.Knapp and the offense should be taking alot of heat over stats like this.Unfortunatley Mora probably doesn't even know about these stats.He probably takes a oh well attitude will do better next time,and we never do get better.This idea of taking 3 yrs to implement an offense head coaches don't survive 3 yrs alot of the time.Mora needs to realize after this year if this offense still stinks cut ties with knapp.Two years is plenty enough time to learn an offense.Knapp will probably say we don;'t have the talent to implement his offense.how much time Greg.Philly never could get to the super bowl until they got TO.Tampa Bay searched for years.I hope Mora and Blank understand that building a champion requires players but it also requires the right system and coaches and so far this offense is anemic at best.Fire Knapp Now!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:23 pm 
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i've never liked the guy or his hair. his play calling is way to conservative and predictable with the occasional insane play, like last weeks vick fake end around. I'm sick of running when it's 3rd and 20 to go. i'm sick of being 3rd and 20 all the damn time. i'm no macho man or anything but his play calling is that of a wuss (i'm being gentle with the verbage). and i don't like it that he just sat there like a d. bag while t.o. yelled at him. not good. vick was just starting to kick it to another level with reeves before knapp came on the scene. reeves had specialists coming in there teaching vick how to be a q.b. and the playcalling seemed to fit vick better.
and like i said, something about his hair, too perfect. either like an evangilist, porn star, or homosexual (not that there's anything wrong with that!)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:25 pm 
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The Colts got shut out 50% of their quarters Sunday. Maybe they need a new OC? My point being is that you guys are going overboard with this stuff.

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 Post subject: You can do alot with stats
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:34 pm 
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Stats are there to make a point in this case something we already know.The defense is relied on way to much to win games and they can't do it all the time.For over one year now the offense has struggled and to be shut out for almost 8 games out of 20 even though the falcon's had a wining record last year tells me the falcon's are barely winning and that other teams in the league if they get a little better will catch up to the falcon's.Every team needs luck to win but barely ecking out victores time after time soon catches up to a team. Were the falcon's as good as there 11-5 record last year? Other teams like carolina get there stars back and alot of people believe they could be better than the falcon's.Will see but the stats I presented state this problem has been ocurring over a year now and so far this year the falcons have been shut out 5 out of 8 quarters.It tells me the falcon's have an anemic offense ahd to be super bowl champs your going to have to do better than this!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:13 pm 
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Carolina already lost their best player this year. We may lose ours if this hammy turns out to be chronic. Things happen and I'm not used to having a winning football team here in Atlanta, so i would rather focus on the positives than dwell on useless stats. I look at it like we could have pulled another KC type game this past Sunday, but our guys showed heart & learned a valuable lesson while keeping themselves from getting embarassed.

Just my .02

Keep in mind that Special Teams is the 3rd squad and while they get less PT than the O & D squads, they can be and are a big impact in many of our games. We pin people deep, we don't allow return TD's often, and we get big plays out of our returners (esp. Rossum) on a semi-regular basis.

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 Post subject: Everyone has there opinion!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:29 pm 
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I respect your opinion like all the mem :D bers! I would hope to dwell on the positive but it is hard time after time you see the offense stall.Here is some info on new england to compare the falcon stats to: :D



Times New England was shutout by quarter includes reg season 2004,playoffs and 2005 after 2 games.

1st quarter 2nd quarter 3rd quarter 4 quarter

5/21 1/21 3/21 6/21

total is 15/84 which is almost 4 games being shutout compared to the falcon's almost 8 games that is a huge difference in a 20 or 21 game schedule over the period ..New england got shutout 18% over the period compared to the falcon's 39%.

Times New England scored over 7 points

5/21 10/21 4/21 5/21

24/84

This is 29% new enland scores over 7 points in a quarter compared to falcon's little over 20%.Might not seem much but a 9% diffence scoring more than 7 points is a good advantage.

Now the Knapp supporters will say only 1 year in the system but also consider New England does it with low round draft choices,free agents at receiver,off line and a 6th round QB.How mnay years do we give knapp now?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:59 am 
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And here is a comparitive stat for you too:

Number of Super Bowls in the past 20 years:

Patriots - at least 4 (can't remember if there were more)
Falcons - 1

Number of winning seasons in the past 10 years:

Pats - at least 4 or 5
Falcons - I think 3 or 4


My point is that our team has obviously made a 180 degree turn in recent years and I think it is a little early to start hanging people out to dry. Do I like the fact our offense stalls EVERY 3rd quarter seemingly? Not really, but we won 75% of our games last year so we're doing something right, even if we're just riding Vick's coattails.

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 Post subject: A lot of positive things from Mora but need to improve
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:28 am 
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Do I like Mora's regime more than Reeve'? you bet,I could not stand seeing Reeve's year after year posting losing records and keeping his job.His offense while it was ball control still provided more attempts at passing than Mora's,I should say knapp's. I love the fact the falcon's were 11-5 but are we content with that? I know as a Brave's fan I am not content winning the divison every year. It is only Mora's second year and to be 11-5 is great.However I believe the Falcon's were 11-5 despite Knapp not because his system worked.As I have shown Knapp's system is flawed for now.If he corrects his problems by passing more then I cannot blame him.Lets see what the season brings since I hope Jenkins,R White play well maybe the offense gets better. My stats show what history his offense has brought us. To many people want to toss history aside and say oh darn will get them next time.We are stuck with knapp this year so he has that time to prove himself.Two yrs is plenty of time to incorporate a system that shows improvement.I guess the thing that is irritating is not seeing adjustments that will make you better.Do you see the offense in the 2 minute warning getting any better these first 2 games.I don't! I see an offense that is stagnant and doesn't know how to move down field.

IMPROVEMENT is all I ask and as Pudge did the anaylsis most Super Bowl team pass vs run around 45-50 of the time.Right now the Falcon's are 62% run 38% pass not an improvement and almost same stats as last year.I think teams are wising up to the Falcon's run first offense and will contain for the most part.Even if the run offense is successful the pass must always be there to rely on.Knapp's offense is to get a lead and sit on it without putting the opponent away and score more.Control ball movement and a strong defense.The defense sooner or later can't continue to hold up the fort that is why it is critical to develop the passing game.Just imagine what the falcon's record would have been if they scored in those quarters when they didn't? I am willing to bet that the 39% of quarters being shut out is probably one of the highest in the league.There are way to many 3 and outs in this offense.I will rest for now but by the middle of the season I hope to see some improvement from this offense.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:19 am 
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Well if we're still getting the same problems at the end of this year that we've had for the past year+, then there will be a serious problem. We have spent 3 first round picks on offense since getting Vick and if we're still struggling late this season then that means none of them have really worked out.

All we can do is hold out hope. I think the Patriots game is going to be a statement game for us like the Eagles game was. If we have the same problem against them I will have to agree that something needs to give at the end of the year.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:26 am 
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Scout's right. The Falcons offense is anemic. But there are multiple causes for that, but the two main ones center on Greg Knapp and Michael Vick.

And basically there is going to be a point where the results are going to speak for themselves, and one of them is going to go. And I'd bet anyone it's going to be Greg Knapp.

But truthfully, we can complain all we want about Greg Knapp, but he basically has a job thru 3 years here in Atlanta (assuming Mora is not fired between now and the end of 2006). The WCO is one said to take 3 years for a QB to grasp (whether you believe it or not), and basically they aren't going to scrap Knapp or his offense until that 3rd year hits.

The Falcons aren't a Super Bowl team because of their offense. There have been games where they have been explosive, but too often we see Knapp's conservative nature.

I've been a Knapp defender in the past, but each week it seems that I'm teetering closer to the anti-Knapp group. But I'm not one that gets into a big hubbub about play-calling and such. People focus a bit too much on the ends rather than the means. A draw on 3rd & 15 is a league-wide staple and very few OCs will air it out unless their team needs the 1st. I think people look at a 3rd & 8 situation, and where Vick throws the ball to a receiver on 5-yard slant, but he is tackled before he gets to the 1st down marker. Most people get riled up and say, "What a terrible call by Knapp!" but they take little note of the fact that it was Vick who made the read and threw the ball, not Knapp.

Basically saying although you can complain all you want about Knapp, but it's going to be blowing a lot of hot air until 2007 or so. It's basically the same as complaining about Reeves during the 2000 and 2001 seasons, because you knew that Taylor Smith was in no mindset to plan on entertaining other options as head coach. I'm sure most of us did it even so (I know I did), but sometimes you might want to save your breath and not get your pressure up.

But right now, scout is right, this is a one-dimensional team that wins football games by defense rather than offense. Basically, our Super Bowl hopes aren't contingent on us lucking up (via some postseason collapses by others) and going to the big game.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:16 am 
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Now the Knapp supporters will say only 1 year in the system but also consider New England does it with low round draft choices,free agents at receiver,off line and a 6th round QB.How mnay years do we give knapp now?


Sorry for jumping in late, but comparing the Super Bowl Champs offense to the Falcons offense isn't a fair comparison in my opinion. Charlie Weiss is an offensive genious by all accounts and Tom Brady is as accurate a thrower in the NFL as you can find.

I'm not necessarily defending Knapp, but you can't compare him to Weiss.

Quote:
The Falcons aren't a Super Bowl team because of their offense. There have been games where they have been explosive, but too often we see Knapp's conservative nature.


Maybe Knapp is so conservative because he works with this team every day and knows what Vick can and can't do. Vick is not and never has been accurate and that is a fact. I don't agree with the play calling myself, but maybe, just maybe his hands are tied. Vick can't even throw a screen pass half the time because of his lack of touch....


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 Post subject: Angry
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:08 pm 
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Wow, once again I agree with Angry. Knapp may be the OC but Vick is the guy who makes the choices on the field. It is his throw that is intercepted, his bad read, his fumble, his crazy overthrow, etc. Knapp may very well be like me as I watch a game, that being scared to death that Vick will throw the ball. The guy has a cannon for an arm, but has about 50% control of it, and his touch is horrible. If he doesn't 'gun it in there' then he doesn't really have the ability to throw it. Plus, Knapp has had to work with Jenkins and Price, both of which have shown no signs they should get balls thrown to them. I am sure Knapp will get the boot if the offense doesn't get better, but that is because the league and Atlanta has a love affair with Vick when he runs and makes people look stupid (which is less and less it seems as he gets older). This hamstring may be just the beginning for a running decline which will really show us what Vick can do as a 'true' QB in this league.

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 Post subject: Knapp
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:40 pm 
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Ok, now I am really worked up :lol: If we look at the last two games I still don't know how Knapp can be blamed. The two Vick fumbles were missed blocking by Finn and TJ, not Knapp, and you really don't even know if they 'missed' the blocks or blocked where their actual assignments were. If P Manning/ Brady/ even Palmer had been behind center then they would have seen Dawkins come to the line and sent an audible to block him, informing TJ or something. That is not a bad OC, but a bad QB. So there are two possible 'shut out' quarters where we could have had points. How about that last fumble as well, was it Knapp's fault that McClure held when TJ scored? Are you taking those points from him as a 'bad OC'? That forced them back 10 yards which killed us. Was it his throw that Dawkins broke up with great defense against Crump?

Knapp did not miss the Jenkins sure TD at Seattle, nor did he overthrow him the second time. I believe the guy is handcuffed by people who don't perform, not by his bad calls or lack of aggressive play calling. We have taken the 'bombs' that we all love, however only one of them has been caught and I don't hear anyone complaining about that call. Look at the people in the system, not the system... at least not to my eye at this point.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:49 pm 
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In my personal opinion Vick has this season and next to prove to me he can pass. If he remains to be the player he is today at the end of the 06/07 season it is time for change. Whether it be moving Vick to RB or demoting him to #2 we simply cannot let one player run the team into the ground because he never developed.

I want with all my heart for Vick to develop, prove everyone wrong, and become the second incarnation of Steve Young or John Elway. But it seems more and more that that is never going to happen. Of course many of the old mobile QB's state otherwise. The local newspaper The Oregonian had interiewed Steve Young, Randall Cunningham, and a few others. They all said it is only a matter of time until Vick learns to be a passer.

I'm curious to see what Schuab can do with this offense. I think he would be the perfect QB especially running the thing in college his entire career. I do believe he is vastly better then Douggie J. who I thought was a capable starter also. Schuab reminds me of Chandler but without the injury issues. If we start Schuab on Sunday and he is lights out we will have a quarterback controversy on our hands. Of course the team, media, and NFL will deny it.

IMO I wasn't a big fan of Knapp but I thought "hey this guy did coach Young & Garcia and Garcia hasn't been good without Knapp or T.O." But we can't change OC's again because it will stunt Vick's growth even more.

I do believe that we have been absolutely horrid in handling Mike Vick since we drafted him. The second we drafted him we needed to jettison Dan Reeves and install a coach and offense that suited his skills. But instead we kept Reeves, fired him mid season (after he changed the offense twice), had Phillips as an interum coach and the hired Mora/Knapp. At this point Vick had learned three different offenses and missed an entire season due to injury. On top of that we never got him a receiver right away (TJ Duckett) in the draft and waited until the following year to get someone. So not only did we go through coaches like water but we also did so with receivers.

Hopefully now that we have given Vick receivers and consistency in the offense and play calling he will develop. If not it is time to admit the mistake and move on.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:52 pm 
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My question about Knapp.....

How could he do so well in San Fran yet, to this point, be so "lackluster" in Atlanta? I mean really, five passes in one half when we were unable to run the ball due to a heavily stacked box and run blitz! :?

I expect to see more gameplans like Seattle's until we prove we can/will throw the football.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:57 pm 
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I said it when we hired Knapp and I will say it again, WCO is not for our team. I don't care if it's a bastard child of the WCO it still probably won't work. Vick has never, not since he came into this league, been able to make the short dink and dunk throws. He's never been able to lay nice, soft, catchable throws over coverage. What he CAN do is throw the ball deep. He shows good touch and accuracy (for the most part, he does over throw some I will admit) when he throws the ball 15+ yards down field. Why we (coaches, Vick, whoever) insist upon throwing 7 yard slants is beyond me. I personally blame this all on Knapp, every last bit of it. Someone is coaching Vick to pick the short throw. He never did that when Reeves was coach. I agree that we will never be a great team until we can throw the ball. I say scrap the WCO and give me the run and shoot back. Lets find us another big rb and pound the ball and then throw deep. Instead of trying to teach a QB to do things he's never shown he can do why not play to his strengths.

I also agree that the play calling is way to predictable and will continue to be until we bite the bullet and throw more that 15 times a game.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:32 pm 
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Steve-O wrote:
Why we (coaches, Vick, whoever) insist upon throwing 7 yard slants is beyond me. I personally blame this all on Knapp, every last bit of it.


Steve-O, you are right, this type of passing game is not Vick's strength. But truthfully, you can't be an NFL QB if you can't excel in this area. And that's the bottom line. A 7-yard slant is one of those "HIGH PERCENTAGE" passes that even "scrubs" like Detmer and Kittner can make. The skill involved in such passes is leading the receiver just enough so that he can catch it in stride and sprint for extra yards. That is what truly develops touch and timing, 2 essential skills to being a starting QB in the NFL. Now, some may believe that it takes greater skill to throw a 30-yard strike down the field, and you're probably right. But it's a skill very few possess, and trying to develop it is probably a dead end. Even watch the top downfield passers like Manning, McNabb, Culpepper, and Favre. In a good game, they may throw 1 pass beyond 25 or so yards that hits the receiver perfectly in stride. In a great game, they'll throw 2 of those passes. In an amazing game, they'll throw 3 or more. But in a normal game, they won't throw any. Most times when you see a QB throw a deep pass, the receiver makes an adjustment to the throw, by speeding up, slowing down, or changing direction. That is the nature of the deep ball in the NFL, the QB heaving it up and the receiver running under it.

I wholeheartedly agree with anyone that says the WCO does not fit Vick's skills. They are 200% correct on that one. An offense suited around Vick's skills will have a mobile pocket where Vick escapes the pocket and looks for the receivers on comeback routes or those that slip past the safety on a deep one. And you see how much of that has been implemented into the "traditional" WCO that Knapp employs. But that type of offense is so simple to stop. Simply send a player upfield quickly which will force Vick to change direction, usually into the path of the pursuit. There was a perfect example of it vs. the Seahawks early on, when MLB Lofa Tatupu saw Vick scrambling, ran up field as fast as he could, cutting off his outside route, which forced Vick to change direction and he was immediately tackled by a pursuing Seahawks DT. The Bucs have worked it to perfection over the past 3 years with Simeon Rice on the edge. It won't work every time, but I would 60-80% of the time, it will effectively neutralize the "Vick offense."

As I said earlier, I think Knapp and Vick work hand in hand in dismantling the potency of the Falcons offense. Knapp because of his conservative play-calling, and Vick because of his inablity to consistently complete passes.

I'm done blaming the receivers on this one fellas. I know our WRs aren't make always making the plays when they get the opportunites, but I also believe that Knapp and Vick for the above reasons aren't helping them get more opportunities to make up for it.

For lack of a better term, the Falcons offense has been one big clusterf@#k since 1998. And will continue to be until at least one among Vick and Knapp step up. And possibly until both players are long gone in Atlanta.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:16 pm 
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I know that a deep ball is as much reciever as it is QB, but that is the only type of throw that Vick has shown me he can make on anything close to a consistant basis. Vick just (at least so far) does not have the touch to throw the shorter passes. If he wants to throw accurately he has to throw it as hard as he can and not many WR's can catch balls thrown that hard (at leat ours cant, but I'd doubt that there are many out there who could).
Really my biggest beef with the whole offense is we do not even try to throw the ball. We throw on 3rd downs and that's just about it. We need to at least try to throw the ball more often


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:03 pm 
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Ya know... There was a time were I though Vick would lead us to a Super Bowl. Now I'm thinking will win a Super Bowl inspite of Vick. Of course Vick will get all the credit even though he was more an anchor then a buoy.

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 Post subject: Its a combination of both coaching and players is the beef!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:22 pm 
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OK I understand where you guys are coming from and will see if the offense develops.I would like to see constant improvement which is something I am yet to see after over a year in the offense. The offense can be thought of as two factors, Knapp vs the players.Remember is the system more important than the players? How do teams that win continually do it.The 49ers of montanta had both the system and players.One without the other and they don't become a dynasty.How do the colts put up so many great numbers in offense? Again the system vs the players.Both are right for the offense.Even after one year I do not see improvement.I see a team that has been shut out 39% of the quarters its played under knapp's system and the falcon personel.Our main goal is to correct the problem and I to have my doubts about vick's accuracy and ifthis system is the right one for himI do know with reeve's the passing game was more potent but I am not saying we need Reeve's conservative offense either.What I am saying is between the great offenses like the Colts,Patriots vs what we have now there has to be a better system to use the skills the offense players have.I know we are stuck with knapp and I am not sure if he gets 3 yrs even tohugh his contract is for.If Blank sees something terribly wrong with something he fixes it on the spot.

Vick's strength is rolling out and passing,running and throwing the ball deep.Knapp supporters would say we don't have any speed to get deep.I hope once Roddy white gets to play we will see some deep passes.Also anyone consdier putting iin Deangelo Hall at receiver? some miught think it is to risky for an injury but deion did it so did a fella named Roy Green of the cardinals and he did it full time.I think we may be tring to fit a square peg in a round hole with this offense.Like I mentioned lets play it out and hope it improves or else we will be having this debate again.Someone on the other board(Roosters) asked that he didn't think the variable of shutout quarters was the most significant variable on offense to guage.I do know that even with the no1 running team last year, the unbalanced pass vs run ratio and the fact that the offense has been shutout 39% of the time there is a problem with the passing game.All the other variables are minor compared to scoring.Also consider the way the offense is now how stagnant and predictable it is.I don't see this as a receipe for winning a Super Bowl which is what we all want.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:38 pm 
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Vick had a better game in the pocket than outside of it last week. There's a lot of negatives on this thread so I'm going to leave it alone, because I don't want to argue with everyone. I will say my piece & just read what you guys have to say.

Vick is improving & finally has some receivers who can get open for the first time ever. Crumpler is having trouble getting open now because everyone is doubling him or putting speedy Pro Bowl D players on him. If we have 4 or 5 guys who can get open then there is always going to be a target. That is the point where we will find out about Vick.

As far as Vick's accuracy goes, EVERY QB in the league struggles when there's a lot of pressure on them. Brady v Carolina last week looked worse than Vick on some of Vick's worst day. Overthrows, throwing wide, throwing short, and every other kind of bad throw you could make; Brady made. McNabb against us on Monday Night, same thing. Culpepper in both games this year, same thing. Manning so far this year has been off. I don't get where after 40ish games everyone already has their minds made up about Vick.

Vick didn't pass in high school hardly & was learning to pass in college a litle bit. They didn't win a championship because they had nowhere near the talent Miami had that year, and Vick STILL almost got it done. Vick, passing-wise, is in his senior year of college right now experience-wise. If in 2-3 years he is still having games like 12-28 for 120 yards & 2 picks, then we can say he was a "bust". For now I will say he is the most exciting player in football and a game changer in the mold of a Moss. His upside is so huge it is ridiculous and I think he will make it happen.

If we can build a decent O-line around him the next couple of years, and basically use the Denver Super Bowl winning teams as an example, then I think we could win 2 or 3 Super Bowls. The problem will, of course, be actually getting these kinds of players while we're already competing for championships yearly. We are going to have to do a tremendous job of developing talent and our staff has shown they can do it (D.Williams comes to mind).

Again, only time will tell but I believe in Vick and our coaches, although I don't LIKE that our offense stalls for quarters at a time.

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 Post subject: Vick
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:29 pm 
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As much as I and everyone complains about Vick I think I speak for everyone when I say that I REALLY want to believe in your piece Incomparable. Let's all pray you are right.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:48 pm 
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Well said Incomparable.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:16 pm 
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very well said....


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