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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:44 pm 
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I somewhat agree about the Brady thing. Had Vick made such comments, he would have been lambasted. But I don't think race is a big factor in that. If there is anybody that has played to the best of their abilities and therefore has the "right" to call out his teammates it's Brady. And the difference between Brady and a player like T.O. is that Brady questioned the character of some of his teammates, nobody specifically. Is Brady talking about guys like Bruschi, etc.? Most likely not, those guys have been there for a while, and I agree with the pundits that he is probably pointed fingers at guys like Duane Starks, Monty Beisel, etc. The guys that haven't been there, that don't sport rings on their fingers. But T.O. calls out players specifically. He questioned Garcia's masculinity, McNabb's heart and toughness, and you know he would question VIck's ability if he was on this team. He's called out other various players specificially and that's the difference.

T.O. and Donovan seemingly got along very well in 2004. When T.O. gets his touches and the wins are coming, he seemingly gets along fine with everybody. With him and Garcia, they didn't like each other at all, but things were fine as long as they worked well together on the field. T.O. only became more boisterous during his final year there when Garcia sucked and therefore it wasn't working quite as well on the field as it had in the past. Dennis Erickson got fed up and they shipped both players away.

Just a few of my cents...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:48 pm 
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Angry, I can pull up a couple of local websites up here that support Comps' points.

Remember up untill last week McNabb and TO kind of resolved their differences.

Dig around in the archives - http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/secti ... mpl=eagles

This article supports the case that TO might have been not as hurt as some think - http://philadelphia.comcastsportsnet.co ... p?ID=18553

Just some, you should be able to find what your looking for.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:01 pm 
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vickis wrote:
Remember up untill last week McNabb and TO kind of resolved their differences.


I think McNabb is the bigger man. He'll smile an act like everything is cool for the sake of the team, but make no mistake about it, if he was making TO a Happy Meal, you bet he'd spit on the burger and wipe his ass on the buns.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:50 pm 
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dirtybirdnw wrote:
I'll ditto what Angry said. Also why the race card? It continues to be one of the most pointless parts of any arguement.

I detect shades of reverse Rush Limbaugh'ism.

And if I had a hard-on from previous threads because I got administration duties I would have locked you out by now. But I have no problems with you and I wouldn't abuse admin rights like that.

I'm all about opposing views and good debate but you (and other folks including myself) have made personal attacks on folks. I'm a big boy and can handle it. My only job here outside of posting is being a board mod and updating the depth chart and other basics. If any thread devolves into personal attacks I will lock it and send people to corners dag nabit. :twisted:


What's with the personal attacks thing? I haven't said anything about anyone in this thread, only that I prefer to think for myself than repeat the same old cancer arguments everyone else makes. Do you really think that if TO were white they would be making such a huge stink about his statements? Absolutley not. As much as Brady has played to the best of his abilities, TO equals Brady's efforts if not surpassing them. TO has every right to call out players on his team as he is always the best player on the team. While some of the things TO said may not be "acceptable" in NFL circles, they were all true.

Angry, the statement about TO & McNabb hanging out & watching the 10/31/05 MNF game is a direct quote from Sheldon Brown in an interview shown on ESPN. You can go look it up yourself if they post SportCenter interviews on the site, but I'm sure I am not the only who saw that.

NFL players do everything for themselves, THAT'S WHAT COMPETITORS DO! They are selfish in their drive & desire to be the best. That's why they are in the NFL and we are watching from our couches or the stands. Everything every player does is motivated by their competitive nature, which is an inheritantly selfish stance.

Tom Brady wanted to be the best QB in football & to win Super Bowls FOR HIMSELF. Sure, he likes his teammates and is considered a "team guy", but who wouldn't be when you have 50+ other guys all with the same goal & achieving that goal? His true colors have more recently shined through.

Sure Marvin Harrison wants Manning to do well, but is it because he wants Manning to be the greatest NFL QB ever or is it because Harrison would like to be in the Hall of Fame? Obviously, it is both, because if Manning is the greatest QB ever then Harrison is surely going to be a Hall of Famer.

As for your retort on my speaking from emotion rather than fact, you can see I have obviously followed this very closely & taken in all the facts such as the statement by Sheldon brown. There is a litany of information that comes through on the backside of things like this that are never aired by ESPN because it makes their agenda look flawed. Oh yes, ESPN has an agenda baby, believe it. Their agenda on this one was ratings pure & simple.

Here is an interesting read for you guys:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5065478

Favre threw Javon Walker under the bus for holding out & he blew out his knee in the first game of the season. Brady questioned his teammates' "character" & now Duane Starks is out for the season with a shoulder injury. Still, neither of these guys have received anything but praise 99% of the time...I'm not saying TO was right, I'm just saying he isn't the antichrist everyone is portraying him to be.

Now I'm done going in circles on this one, so as a final statement I will tell you of my history with TO. I have always been a Falcons fan as I was born & raised here, but I played for the South Gwinnett Cowboys growing up. We won 4 county championships in a row after I joined the team and so I became a big Cowboys fan too. i was watching the game the day TO ran out & stood on the Dallas star at midfield. I watched as he did it the second time & George Teague (S, Alabama) ran up & leveled TO for doing it again.

I HATED TO more than any of you ever will. He had basically taken a dump on my 2nd favorite team. I could not stand the guy. That all changed when he went onto the field for the Super Bowl & caught 125+ yards against a tough Pats defense. Now I still really don't care for him as a person, but there is no denying his heart & will as a football player. Sure, he runs his mouth & speaks his mind, and usually he says the absolutely worst thing possible, but is that really his fault? I mean, if anything, we should be applauding him for teaching kids to be honest (OK, that one was a stretch.....lol).

Seriously though, I really thought that living in America meant you could say what you wanted to say whenever you wanted to. If the NFL isn't like that they need to put into contracts what players can & cannot say or find some other way of going about their business. Honestly, I think Vick wouldn't be as effected by Owens as McNabb was. McNabb is a primadonna and his feelings are very easily hurt, as were Garcia's. They both took offense to what he had to say & the franchise backs it's QB....I don't believe Vick is nearly as big a bitch as those guys are & I think he could spin the things TO says....although I doubt we will see TO in Atlanta due to his history with Knapp.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:36 pm 
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The Incomparable wrote:
As much as Brady has played to the best of his abilities, TO equals Brady's efforts if not surpassing them. TO has every right to call out players on his team as he is always the best player on the team.


Well first off, T.O.'s career achievements are not even close to Brady. Brady has 3 Super Bowl rings, and has contributed a lot to 2 of them (I believe the 1st Super BOwl win and season was more due to the defense and bad coaching by Martz than anything else). T.O has played in only 1 NFC Championship game in his life, and 1 Super Bowl. And I would agree with you, if not for that fact that T.O. calls out the players that he shouldn't. Brady calls out the new guys that don't have the same heart as the older Patriot players. T.O. calls out the leaders of his team. It would the equivalent of DeAngelo Hall pointing fingers at Brooking, Kerney, and Vick. You don't call out leaders unless they have shown poor leadership. It's one thing if a Viking player called out Randy Moss for poor leadership, but it's totally another if they called out Culpepper or Matt Birk. The latter two are true leaders, Moss on the other hand, will lead when he feels like it.

I totally agree Comp that in order to be a successful NFL player or any type of athlete in a team sport, you have to have that drive that says "I wanna win, let's go win!" But the difference between T.O. and players like him and other more and less successful players is that when a team loses, T.O. heaps the blame on everybody but himself. His first negative statement was this:

"I wasn't the one who got tired at teh end of the Super Bowl" sums up just what type of person and player he is.

Here is what Brady said, per the Boston Herald:

Tom Brady wrote:
We’ve dealt with plenty of tough situations before. I think a lot of it has to do with the character and toughness of this team. I think we need to show more character. I don’t care about injuries. We miss Rodney Harrison to death, but at the same time we have to do everything we can to play as well without him. We’ve lost some big voids in leadership and experience, but other guys have to find a way to get to a championship level. It starts with me and works its way to every guy on the team. There are certainly times where I would like us to play tougher as an offense. You watch Indianapolis play, they put constant pressure on the other defense. We’ve got to be an offense where you basically impose your will on the defense rather than just take it all day. I feel like sometimes we go out there and let them dictate the tempo and flow of the game. It’s frustrating where you can walk right down the field, then all of a sudden on the next drive go three and out. It’s ridiculous.


To sum up what Brady said: "I don't think everyone is playing hard enough. There are things I and the offense has to do, there are things that the defense has to do."

Brady and Harrison of course want to win, and I'm positive that they want to be recognized for their individual achievements as well like their stats, the HOF, and to be mentioned in arguments about who were the greatest players ever. But they understand the fundamental thing about football, is that they can only go as far as the other 52 guys on their team go. T.O. doesn't seem to understand this. He seems to believe that teams will go as far as he goes, and if they don't, then screw them. THey just suck.

Why call out McNabb? That's just what I don't understand. McNabb, who carried his team for 3 years. All the Eagles had before T.O's arrival was McNabb and a good defense. McNabb gets tired at the end of the game, but still plays and is showing heart. The same thing that T.O. did to come back from his injury. Then T.O. comes out a few months later saying, we lost because he got tired. And truth be told, it's probably true. Had McNabb not been tired at the end of the game, the Eagles probably would've won or at least had a much better chance of winning. But that doesn't mean you're allowed or should throw him under the bus.

It's the same thing as someone on this team calling out Michael Vick had we lost that Jets game. Vick played terribly and a L there most would have been pointing the fingers at him. But why can't you call out Michael Vick if you're his teammate? Because of Vick usually gets the win. Vick doesn't always play great, but he usually plays good enough to get the win and his very presence alone inspires the rest of the team. It's the exact same thing with McNabb, but McNabb usual outplays Vick on a normal day.

And Comp, I actually agree with a little. I think race has a significant (which doesn't mean large) effect on this whole T.O. situation. I think there are enough people in the media that still think like its the 40s and 50s that can effectively villianize T.O. Now that doesn't mean that everyone in the media thinks that way. You probably only need to have 1% of the powers that be in the media to think that way and it to have similar wide-reaching effects. And that doesn't mean that T.O.'s own actions don't help villainize himself.

But I do wonder a bit why it is that Manning and Brady are the "Golden Boys" of the QB position, and why a guy like McNabb is not there. One could easily say that it is because Brady came from nowhere and has won Super Bowls and Manning is the legacy QB that is set to break all the passing records. And I have no evidence to argue against that and the only evidence that I have that race is involved is the mere "coincidence" that both are white.

And I know this post is going to kill this thread, so I apologize for it. And just because I'm the boss around here :wink: don't take this as official FalcFans policy or anything. I'm going to start a post in the FalcFans Lounge if you want to discuss this matter specifically in the hopes that it can save t his thread. But I think in this country, there is a subconscious level of thinking that whenever people see an outspoken black person, people immediately dislike him because it goes back to an older line of thought that a black person is "better seen than heard."

Now that doesn't mean that everyone in America is racist. It doesn't mean just because you don't like T.O., you are racist. I think that there is a very miniscule percentage of Americans today that hold the same prejudices that the majority of Americans may have held 75 years ago.

So there I said it. And I guess I'll probably give it 4 or 5 more posts on this thread before someone decides to lock it. :oops:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:47 pm 
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The_Incomparable wrote:
?
Well of course you think I have a chip on my shoulder. You just got admin duties & still have a hard on for me because I disagreed with you in an earlier thread. If you don't like me, ban me dude. No skin off my back. I can be the TO of FalcFans. :roll: At what point did America become a Communist state anyways? I have never seen people blasted so much for having an unpopular opinion before in my life than I have in the last 5 years.


Since when is America a state?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:49 pm 
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Why lock it? It's good conversation, and I think you make excellent points with most people being objective and flexible with their opinions.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:13 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
Brady calls out the new guys that don't have the same heart as the older Patriot players. T.O. calls out the leaders of his team.


You fail to mention that Brady doesn't specifically name names and also spoke down on himself He generalized and wasn't as abrasive. TO has a hard on for McNabb and it shows.

Pudge wrote:
I totally agree Comp that in order to be a successful NFL player or any type of athlete in a team sport, you have to have that drive that says "I wanna win, let's go win!" But the difference between T.O. and players like him and other more and less successful players is that when a team loses, T.O. heaps the blame on everybody but himself. His first negative statement was this:


I have no doubt that TO wants to win. I have no doubt Brady or anyone else in the NFL wants to win. The difference between the two is one is willing to do anything to win, the other isn't. Do you think Brady, Manning, or even Vick for that matter cares if they throw for 300 yards and 3 touchdowns a game? No. Hell no. TO will and has bitched for not getting the touches, win or lose. Why? He can't rake in the big pay day if he doesn't have the numbers.

Pudge wrote:
Then T.O. comes out a few months later saying, we lost because he got tired. And truth be told, it's probably true


Or maybe not true. What if the Eagle defense played beter, what if Westbrook ran better, what if, what if. The Eagles didn't lose because DM got tired, they lost to a better team.

Pudge']And Comp, I actually agree with a little. I think race has a significant (which doesn't mean large) effect on this whole T.O. situation. [/quote]

I disagree. TO loves the camera, and the camera loves TO. Don't get me wrong, it's all about the ratings.. but if TO was white, purple or other, he'd still get the TV time. Rodman was the same way in the NBA. Always a comment or antic to stay in the news. Any press is good press and both TO and Rodman know this.

[quote="Pudge wrote:
But I do wonder a bit why it is that Manning and Brady are the "Golden Boys" of the QB position, and why a guy like McNabb is not there. One could easily say that it is because Brady came from nowhere and has won Super Bowls and Manning is the legacy QB that is set to break all the passing records. And I have no evidence to argue against that and the only evidence that I have that race is involved is the mere "coincidence" that both are white


Bah. All three are class acts and none are "self promoters". The NFL is a marketing genious and has been for sometime and right now no one and I mean no gets marketed more than Mike Vick. And what color is he? There are only 5 black QB's starting as of now. Od course it will look like they are showing more white highlights than not. Sheesh.

McNabb get his time in the sun, but the truth be told, he just slightly above average for a QB. His isn't that accurate and makes an occassional poor decision. Brady has won the Super Bowl 3 times and it seems Manning breaks a passing record every other week. They get the props they deserve.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:37 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
The Incomparable wrote:
As much as Brady has played to the best of his abilities, TO equals Brady's efforts if not surpassing them. TO has every right to call out players on his team as he is always the best player on the team.


Well first off, T.O.'s career achievements are not even close to Brady. Brady has 3 Super Bowl rings, and has contributed a lot to 2 of them (I believe the 1st Super BOwl win and season was more due to the defense and bad coaching by Martz than anything else). T.O has played in only 1 NFC Championship game in his life, and 1 Super Bowl. And I would agree with you, if not for that fact that T.O. calls out the players that he shouldn't. Brady calls out the new guys that don't have the same heart as the older Patriot players. T.O. calls out the leaders of his team. It would the equivalent of DeAngelo Hall pointing fingers at Brooking, Kerney, and Vick. You don't call out leaders unless they have shown poor leadership. It's one thing if a Viking player called out Randy Moss for poor leadership, but it's totally another if they called out Culpepper or Matt Birk. The latter two are true leaders, Moss on the other hand, will lead when he feels like it.

I totally agree Comp that in order to be a successful NFL player or any type of athlete in a team sport, you have to have that drive that says "I wanna win, let's go win!" But the difference between T.O. and players like him and other more and less successful players is that when a team loses, T.O. heaps the blame on everybody but himself. His first negative statement was this:

"I wasn't the one who got tired at teh end of the Super Bowl" sums up just what type of person and player he is.



Great post Pudge. He has said plenty of bad things about his teammates that are considered terrible by the NFL brass, be it the league or the front office or just coaches. The funny thing is they are all true, with the only possible exception being that Garcia was gay. McNabb DID get tired in the 4th quarter & I, for one, didn't appreciate hearing about his "rare condition" that causes his to lose his breath at the end of games as an EXCEUSE for why they lost the Super Bowl. And we all heard it a lot, as did TO. Now I don't know about you guys, but after hearing the excuses the Eagles made for McNabb while not really publicizing TO's efforts as they should have after the Super Bowl, I feel the Eagles began to show their true colors.

It WAS McNabb's fault they lost the Super Bowl. Their D played well enough to win. Owens played well on a Frankenstein leg, and Brady just plain outclassed McNabb. It's an unfortunate fact that nobody but TO was willing to face & he had a right to have a hard on for McNabb. If it wasn't for his "rare disorder", they might have a Super Bowl ring on their finger.

On another note, it is widely believed that Culpepper was a primary member of the Love Boat posse & helped Smoot to set the party up. So that may not be a good example to use for good leadership.....lol

What could I boil this all down to? Money & championships. Being the elite player that TO is, he knows that a Super Bowl ring is almost required to validate a star player's career. Also, he didn't (& I don't) like the fact that JEVON KEARSE is making more money than he is. Could you imagine that? You're an elite player at your position in the NFL & the average DE on your team is making more money than you? I mean come on.

In the long run Philly will get what they want. No TO & no fat contract for a receiver. Instead they will have a rookie WR with more than questionable hands to fill in for TO's absense. Again, as a UGA fan, you signed your own losing season with that decision Philly. And we, as Falcons fans, are loving every minute of it.


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