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 Post subject: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:34 am 
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Ok, help me figure this out....

So we resigned Redman right off the bat in March..Then we waived him yesterday.

So we seem to have found a 'diamond in the rough' with 'Nique: but why didn't ANYONE else see this kids potential? He was a UDFA, right? How did he slip past the draft and 31 other team evaluations?

Something doesn't make sense. Were we really THAT worried that if we didn't resign Redman, someone else would have snapped him up?

Now JPW: when the Vikings tried to sign him off the PS in December last year, we added him to the 53 man roster..Why? In December of last year, were the powers that be really concerned that Ryan AND Redman would go down, so we 'needed' to keep him? JPW was another UDFA that nobody else saw merit with....

And: if we do put DD on the PS, what is to stop any other team from snapping him up?

Something just doesn't seem right here. We resign guys we waive months later. We just got our backup QB in the last wekk of preseason? Wouldn't it have made more sense to cut Redman a week ago so McCown could get some reps? :shock:

Okay, now Turner. As Pudge has aptly put it: we simply paid too much for him this offseason. We could have restructured his contract, but did the FO even attempt to? How does this make sense?

Im probably waaaay off the mark, but I think this has to do more with the 'personalities' then the 'talent' involved.

When Mike Smith and TD came in here they kept Redman on the roster. Redman has done some good things for us in the past: he is directly responsible for getting the 'back-to-back' mokey off our back. Sure, he looked bad recently, but back then he was a good backup QB.

Turner came in here and was Ryan's safety blanket in season one. Without Turner I dont think Ryan has his rookie sensational year.

Is it even possible that Smith and TD resigned these guys the way they did not on par with thier talent grade, but as a way to keep everyone in the locker room 'happy' and as a means to say 'we appreciate what you've done for us in the past, so were giving you this deal'.?

I mean, all they do is talk about 'character'. Being 'good guys'. Etc.

You know what Belichick would have done with Turner? Does anyone think he would have offered Turner the contract we did at the time we did? I dont.

Im prolly dead wrong, but something just doesn't add up here...thoughts?

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Last edited by fun gus on Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:48 am 
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I'm going to file it under "kicking the tires."

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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:01 am 
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dirtybirdnw wrote:
I'm going to file it under "kicking the tires."



I dont think I understand your comment. Kicking what 'tires'? I mean: we could see by game 2 and the entire offseason Redman sucked. Did they think he was going to 'get better'?

Shouldn't we have kicked those tires a while back? This is the last week of preseason: and our #2 QB just got off the plane. Koetter knows McCown. Why not get him in here a week early so he could get up to speed and get some reps?

Did the Saints give out the playbook just last week or something, and that's why we waited so long? :?:

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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:04 pm 
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I think that this goes back to what Pudge has been saying... TD & co made some good initial moves when they got here. Since then, there's a profound lack of direction, and a lack of logical decision making.

DD has been a huge surprise. Obviously, everyone in the NFL missed it. The Falcons happened to luck out. With DD looking so strong, and Redman looking so weak, I don't think that it's a horrible move to get rid of Redman. Then again, I don't think that it's brilliance either.

If anything, this staff seems to be treading water. Again, no clear direction. After watching the game the other night, I'd go as far as to say that the entire team lacks direction. We come out playing Marty-ball, then when that obviously sucks, we switch over to long ball after long ball. I don't know who's calling the shots, but with 100% honesty, I think that I could do a better job, at least of establishing direction/identity.


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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:40 pm 
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:lol:

Some of you guys are pretty funny. Complain when TD doesn't do anything and then complain more when he does.

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:44 pm 
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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
:lol:

Some of you guys are pretty funny. Complain when TD doesn't do anything and then complain more when he does.

:lol:

That's what message boards are for. :up:

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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:47 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
AngryJohnny51 wrote:
:lol:

Some of you guys are pretty funny. Complain when TD doesn't do anything and then complain more when he does.

:lol:

That's what message boards are for. :up:



If this is what the Falcon "fans" say about the team, I can only imagine what the other 31 teams fans say about us. :angel:


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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:19 pm 
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"Complacency or Desperation". You should have had one more choice for the very few glass half full people here. "Smart Move".

I am in no way defending McCown, because I think he sucks. But Redman was terrible this preseason and God forbid if Ryan went down, they couldn't possibly hand the keys over to a rookie undrafted FA. The coaching staff knows what it had with Redman coming into the season. They've seen him daily for a few years now. Not great, but not terrible either. Servicable. DD was here top push JPW and he did push him....right out the door. The unforeseen here was that Redman was terrible. Maybe he didn't fully grasp the new offense, maybe father time caught up with him, maybe he got an offer selling insurance he couldn't pass up. Whatever the case, he didn't get "cut" so much as he played himself off the team. The logical choice to be brought in was McCown because of his familiarity with Koetner's offense.


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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:52 pm 
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AJ51, you're not wrong. Everything you said is 100% accurate. And you're right, I can myself admit that it's talking out both sides of your mouth.

I guess my beef, and you can call it being overly negative, nitpicking, or whatever is that Redman's demise wasn't as if it came out of nowhere. Granted, I didn't think that he would get cut, nor would I have predicted he would have played so poorly as he did this summer.

But if this team was really doing their own evaluations, and scrutinizing things as much as they should be, then it's not coming out of left field. Redman has regressed over the past few years. If you or TD or whomever were scrutinizing his play at the end of last year, you would have seen it, as myself and fun gus did. But yet there was no hesitation this past March to re-sign Redman.

Redman signed on the first day, within 4-5 hours of the free agent period beginning. At that point in time, the only QB that had signed a deal yet was possibly Jason Campbell (and I'm not 100% sure that is true). And within the next 72 hours, Orton, Josh McCown, Henne, Orlovsky, Derek Anderson, Drew Stanton, Charlie Whitehurst all signed deals. Within the next week, we discovered the fates of Peyton Manning, Garrard, Shaun Hill, Matt Flynn, Brady Quinn, etc.

And so while again, you are 100% correct that this was the right move, the other part of it is that they find themselves in this "predicament" essentially from their own actions. Perhaps had they actually did a little bit of shopping for that first week of FA in March, maybe you would be cutting Redman for a guy that EARNED his spot.

Davis definitely earned his spot. McCown hasn't.

So part of me is willing to give them some credit for making the move, but I cannot completely get up and applaud it because that other part of me says that you put yourself in this position to begin with.

I don't have a beef that they re-signed Redman. One-year veteran minimum and you have a pretty good idea what you're getting with him. Can't really complain if any player accepts those terms. I just have/had a beef that once they re-signed Redman, they seemingly stopped caring about the backup QB situation. And that to me smacks of complacency.

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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:47 pm 
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Quote:
Davis definitely earned his spot. McCown hasn't.


I agree. And if McClown is as bad as I think he is, we may have to bring in another "vet" who doesn't make the cut. And then I will be leaning towards the "it's a little late for this" camp.

Quote:
I don't have a beef that they re-signed Redman. One-year veteran minimum and you have a pretty good idea what you're getting with him. Can't really complain if any player accepts those terms. I just have/had a beef that once they re-signed Redman, they seemingly stopped caring about the backup QB situation. And that to me smacks of complacency.


I totally hear and understand where you are coming from. In a perfect world a team should improve in all areas every year. Unfortunately, it isn't a perfect world. The only issue I have with your statement is And that to me smacks of complacency.

TD and crew knew what we had in Redman. They resigned him. Though Redman slipped a bit last year, no one could have predicted his huge decrease in ability this summer. TD and crew didn't hesitate and got rid of him. So from where I stand TD didn't become complacent. Redman did. There's a difference I think.


Last edited by AngryJohnny51 on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:53 pm 
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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
I totally hear and understand where you are coming from. In a perfect world a team should improve in all areas every year. Unfortunately, it isn't a perfect world. The only issue I have with your statement is And that to me smacks of complacency.

TD and crew new what we had in Redman. They resigned him. Though Redman slipped a bit last year, no one could have predicted his huge decrease in ability this summer. TD and crew didn't hesitate and got rid of him. So from where I stand TD didn't become complacent. Redman did. There's a difference I think.

Very true. Redman's complacency blows anything TD & Co. did out of the water. But I can't absolve them because they got lulled by it, and they should be above that. I hold TD to a very high standard.

I guess just for me, if they had really scrutinized the roster and really evaluated things as they said they would in the presser after the Giants game, IMO they would have sniffed this and done a little more than what they did earlier in the off-season.

And for all their scrutiny and evaluation, they are basically bringing back the same roster. When you look at last year's roster and look at the projected roster for this year, besides getting Asante Samuel, where have we really improved the team from a year ago? Losing Weems, Ovie, and Lofton, I think you can certainly say we've taken some steps back at WR, FB, and LB. And the other changes to me are fairly superficial.

The complacency comes from this, basically that what has played out over the past 6 months tells me that in those January/February meetings where they were evaluating this team, they came out of thinking, "Yep, we're pretty good to go." And I think they basically said the same thing I've heard many fans say which is, "We were 10-6 last year and made the playoffs, things could be a lot worse."

And this situation with Redman IMO stems from that attitude. I have no beef if a fan has that perspective. I don't agree with it, and will let you know about it on the forum, but I respect your right and prerogative to have that sort of viewpoint and perspective. But for people like Thomas Dimitroff, MIke Smith, etc. who are being paid millions of $$$, in my eyes there is a Zero Tolerance Policy with that sort of thinking.

As I said in another thread, their goal needs to be to close that gap between us and a team like Green Bay, and IMHO with that sort of mindset, there's no chance that is going to happen.

The argument made to me in the off-season when I first complained about keeping Redman, was that we had bigger fish to fry. And that was true. But did we in fact actually fry any of those fish? There was universal agreement that the O-line was the Achilles Heel of the offense last year, and guess what? We're trotting out the same starting 5 we had a year ago. That fish didn't get put in the pan.

Now maybe, all of their talk that certain players like Ryan, Baker, Ray Edwards, Dent, Jerry, etc. will in fact step up improve and do all the things we've been promised. And I'll be dead wrong about this team. But my natural cynicism (i.e. my bullshit detector) says something about that stinks...

So in one sense I give TD & Co. some credit for cutting Redman, but I have to temper it somewhat for all of the above reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:38 pm 
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The complacency comes from this, basically that what has played out over the past 6 months tells me that in those January/February meetings where they were evaluating this team, they came out of thinking, "Yep, we're pretty good to go." And I think they basically said the same thing I've heard many fans say which is, "We were 10-6 last year and made the playoffs, things could be a lot worse."


I can certainly understand why you would be thinking like that. Many do. I understand I'm in the minority, but I think they did evaluate our roster and our roster needs correctly. Our offensive line needed help. Did we sit on our hands and do nothing as many think? No, we signed Vince Manuwai. We drafted Peter Konz. We drafted Lamar Holmes. We needed help at FB with Ovie down and eventually waived. We drafted the best FB in the country in Bradie Ewing. Our secondary was soft and we went out and stole Asante Samuels. Curtis Lofton gave us a big F.U. and signed with our rival the Saints. The situation was addressed by getting Tatupu for backup, knowing that Dent was ready (hopefully) to step up.

The only thing i would have liked to seen addressed was getting an heir apparent to Gonzo. But I also understand that we had limited picks this year and the FA cap was tight.

Now, due to injuries, some of these moves won't work out. But sometimes that is the case. You get some bad breaks and we got some. It doesn't mean the brass sat idly by. I think they said ( and I tend to agree) that we have some tame talent here in key positions. We need to play to our talents....and that's why Koetner and Nolan were brought in.


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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:15 pm 
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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
I can certainly understand why you would be thinking like that. Many do. I understand I'm in the minority, but I think they did evaluate our roster and our roster needs correctly. Our offensive line needed help. Did we sit on our hands and do nothing as many think? No, we signed Vince Manuwai. We drafted Peter Konz. We drafted Lamar Holmes. We needed help at FB with Ovie down and eventually waived. We drafted the best FB in the country in Bradie Ewing. Our secondary was soft and we went out and stole Asante Samuels. Curtis Lofton gave us a big F.U. and signed with our rival the Saints. The situation was addressed by getting Tatupu for backup, knowing that Dent was ready (hopefully) to step up.

The only thing i would have liked to seen addressed was getting an heir apparent to Gonzo. But I also understand that we had limited picks this year and the FA cap was tight.

Now, due to injuries, some of these moves won't work out. But sometimes that is the case. You get some bad breaks and we got some. It doesn't mean the brass sat idly by. I think they said ( and I tend to agree) that we have some tame talent here in key positions. We need to play to our talents....and that's why Koetner and Nolan were brought in.

Yeah, we didn't sit on our hands, but it sure did feel like it. I guess part of it is as you say, a difference of opinion at the outcome of that evaluation. I think the gap between us and the best teams in the league is a lot larger than you and apparently the brass thinks. When I look at those teams that are projected to win 8 or 9 games this year, I see the gap between them and the Falcons as pretty small, esp. in comparison to the Falcons and say the teams that people are projecting to win 12 or 13 games.

I think we'll win a playoff game this year, and many people will see that and automatically say the team has improved significantly, but I think that eventual playoff win will come only because we get a better matchup, not because the team has dramatically improved.

And for the record, I think you give them far too much credit for drafting Bradie Ewing. Sure, Bradie Ewing was the best fullback in the country this past year, but there is always a fullback of his caliber that comes out in every draft. Anthony Sherman, Owen Marecic, Henry Hynoski, Stanley Havili were just as good. The 49ers took an undrafted DE in Bruce Miller and got good production from him. And there's likely going to be some fullback this year that's on a similar level.

This is part of the issue I have with their ability to evaluate. It's not to say that Ewing is a bad player. I think he'll be a solid to good pro player and if he gets healthy, a good player for us. But I see a fullback FA that includes Le'Ron McClain, Jacob Hester, Owen Schmitt, Michael Robinson, Spencer Larsen, Lawrence Vickers, etc. and Ewing doesn't stand out from that group.

I can't recall exactly if it was the Bengals game specifically as well as some other podcast I've listened to over the past few months, but they were talking about the FB position and how the TE position has been revamped in recent years due to the influx of talent, and whether that would happen for the FBs.

Meanwhile, Carolina brings in Mike Tolbert. KC has Peyton HIllis. Houston is going with James Casey. Philly had Leonard Weaver. Oakland has Marcel Reese. Tolbert and Hillis can run as well as block, Casey and Reese are practically former WRs, and Weaver is like a hybrid RB/TE. 2 years ago the Pats drafted Aaron Hernandez, who I graded as a 1st round pick, but the Falcons crossed him off their draft board because of some knuckleheadedness, but now in NE is the ultimate "flex" player, creating mismatches at WR, TE, and FB. If you were to roll the dice on players like that, even if it didn't work out I'd be all about that move. Because that indicates innovative thinking. But when you draft a guy like Ewing, who is a traditional one-dimensional fullback. When the Falcons tried to get their "flex" guy they would up with Kerry Meier.

Had we gotten Evan Rodriguez, he could have potentially been that player. And maybe we were looking at Rodriguez, because after he went off the board we quickly snatched up Ewing. But it makes me believe that in the Falcons War Room on draft day, once they saw Rodriguez off the board (and Rhett Ellison as well), they made the decision then and there to take Ewing with their next pick because he was the only FB prospect that they liked enough to draft. And so their needs-based draft strategy forced their hand, even if they were 25 other guys left on the board in Round 5 that are likely to have better NFL careers than Ewing.

Which brings me back to the idea that I didn't think Ovie was done. I think people perceive that, but I think he can play at a relatively high level for another 3-5 years in this league. Is Ewing going to be significantly better in that same span than Ovie would have? I don't think so. And it's not off to a very auspicious start.

Ewing smacks of the low risk/low reward mentality that I think this team has utilized far too much on draft day in recent years. I don't expect all of our draft picks to be home runs. But I'm getting tired of all these singles. To continue the baseball metaphor, I'm not seeing Ichiro taking teams to the ALCS very often.

And many people probably read this and say, "Pudge, what's the big deal? It's just one move. It's not going to make or break the team." And you'd be right, if this was the only example of this. But this same thing is happening all over this roster, if you care to look. If it was just 1 or 2 instances, then it would be no big deal. But when you're talking 7 or 8 instances, we're talking potentially serious consequences. And the comeback is "Aw Pudge, you say 'consequences' like we're only going to win 5 games. You yourself still think we're going to win 10+ games and win a playoff game, so what's the big deal?"

And that to me is complacency. And I know that sounds odd to many folks, being complacent and going to the playoffs. But it is when you have a rare opportunity to be in the driver's seat for a championship.

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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:30 pm 
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This has been discussed year after year after year; and the Term " It all starts up front"
is a valid today as it was 30 years ago!!

Our Offensive line over the last 4 years has gotten older and lost parts and absolutely no improvement has been made.

Our Defensive line with Babs & Abe is a shell of itself; and guys like Sidbury and Biermann are just people who have been given every chance and have come up short
from what we have.

I think Ray Edwards will play a little better but not much.

I think they'll regret letting Lofton go. He may lack some tools but our other guys
can't hold their own in the middle.

Its outright desperation now that we know Ryan can hit a receiver with only one step against an opponent; he can't put the ball on the money unless its those 20 yard outs; and Julio will get some yards on his own but IMO its desperation time.

I've watched a lot of 6-10 teams and this looks like one!!

Especially since the team already thinks there in the playoffs and need to win a playoff game? The owner & coach makes them feel real good about themselves. The Gm and Coach just decided yesterday they are screwed!!

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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:35 pm 
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Quote:

Some of you guys are pretty funny. Complain when TD doesn't do anything and then complain more when he does.


I've supported T.D. 100% FROM DAY ONE but when he makes no chances to an offensive line in 4 years and screws up his moves on the defensive line, then we'll regroup next year. This team doesn't even look like a team!!

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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:14 am 
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I think thye have made efforts to improve the lines but that they have not really worked out too well. Peters loss will be big. Back when Van Note and M Kenn, etc., were playing it seemed to me our QBs still got killed all the time. When we went to the SB Chandler got sacked 50+ times. Vick was always under duress. Even his dog fighting operation got sacked. It's in the ATL Falcon Code of Southern Gentlemanliness that we will allow DL to go unfettered to the QB. We've always put more stock in ticket selling skill players than building blocks it seems. If this team goes 6-10 Artie's post season presser is going to be a hoot. It will be like the pol conventions where they say one thing but what they actually are saying is, "Things will be completely different but extremely similar."

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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:00 am 
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Quote:
I've supported T.D. 100% FROM DAY ONE but when he makes no chances to an offensive line in 4 years


Apparently you haven't heard that we took two offensive linemen with our first two picks this year? Both will be starting by years end. That's a 40% new line....

You apparently have a fast food type mentality. You want it all now. Not every one can reload their roster with FA's. Look where that has gotten the Jets, Redskins, etc.

Sometimes you have to build from within.....and that takes more than an offseason. And I don't want to hear that he's had four years to do it...we've had many, many holes to fill in that time....


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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:07 pm 
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Yep that's me--a 35+ season ticket holder with a fast food Mentality?

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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:13 pm 
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AngryJohnny51 wrote:
Quote:
I've supported T.D. 100% FROM DAY ONE but when he makes no chances to an offensive line in 4 years


Apparently you haven't heard that we took two offensive linemen with our first two picks this year? Both will be starting by years end. That's a 40% new line....

You apparently have a fast food type mentality. You want it all now. Not every one can reload their roster with FA's. Look where that has gotten the Jets, Redskins, etc.

Sometimes you have to build from within.....and that takes more than an offseason. And I don't want to hear that he's had four years to do it...we've had many, many holes to fill in that time....

AJ, I'd agree with you if not for the Julio Jones deal. Don't get me wrong... I think that JJ is an awesome receiver. But if the OL can't hold up long enough for JJ to get open, what's the point?

The year that we drafted JJ would have been the perfect time to get our lines back into shape. OL and DL could use some help. With the JJ trade, we missed out on 2-3 potential linemen. I know darn well that the Falcons wouldn't have used those picks on linemen, but again, that's on the FO.


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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:19 pm 
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Yep, the unspoken truth in that the reason the Falcons used their top 2 picks on OL this year, was because of the neglect they gave the line last year. TD took the solid play of the OL from 2010 for granted last spring/summer, and the Falcons paid for it during the season.

It's hard to deny that as a fact.

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 Post subject: Re: complacency or desperation?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:28 am 
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Cyril wrote:
Yep that's me--a 35+ season ticket holder with a fast food Mentality?

:lol: All those years of watching Falcon football is probably the same sum effect of eating fast food for the same amount of time. It's wonder you are still alive. Tastes bad, less filling.

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