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 Post subject: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:05 pm 
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http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Who ... fting.html

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:37 pm 
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It might be suggested that teams that play poorly in general but field many drafted players such as AZ really are not doing so well drafting...they just insist on playing their selected talent marginal though it may be.

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:56 pm 
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Thinks this speaks largely toward his getting guys who can play, but aren't difference makers. P Jerry still plays. Chris Owens still plays. Dom Franks still plays. But to be a top 5 team like Atlanta wants to be, you need more players like Julio. We need to be getting Randall Cobb's instead of Harry Douglass's. Not each pick, but some more guys who substantially overperform their drafted spot.


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:17 am 
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T.D. did get Julio and was beat to death for it? Crap T.D. is darn good.

Tony G. was a great trade; M. Turner was a great free agent, and many wanted someone besides Matt Ryan. Every year he seems to steal someone like A. Samuels.

You can point out bad choices but we were in the top 5 this year. DeCoud and W. Moore
made the Pro Bowl I think. He's let people walk like Lofton, and it didn't seem to hurt us.

He also got a solid Head Coach so besides a Super Bowl we've come a long ways in 5 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:39 am 
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Cyril wrote:
Every year he seems to steal someone like A. Samuels

I wouldn't go that far Cyril. Besides ASante Samuel, you'd have to go all the way back to 2009 when we traded for Gonzo and signed Mike Peterson before a FA move/trade really worked out for the Falcons. Dunta wasn't a bad signing in the sense that flamed out, but we definitely didn't get the $25 or so million in return that we paid him over the past 3 years.

It's also interesting that earlier in the year you were saying the letting Lofton go was the biggest mistake of this past off-season. What changed your mind?

Again the criticism for TD isn't that his early moves (as you pointed out) weren't good. It's that his moves since then have been a far cry from it. Nobody expects perfection from TD, but some of these moves that blew up in his face were fairly telegraphed.

It's been a long time since TD has produced a draft or off-season that has really paid huge dividends for this team (3 years). Hopefully we won't have to wait a 4th year...

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:19 pm 
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IMHO, this is the year that TD needs to step up and knock it out of the park. We need a pass rush, and we need an offensive line. Dimitroff absolutely whiffed on Ray Edwards. He whiffed on Peria Jerry. He's let the absence of Harvey Dahl plague the team for 2 years. It's time for Dimitroff to earn his pay and address these issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:19 am 
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Yes I thought letting Lofton go was a big mistake; but I'm admitting it didn't seem to hurt us as the season went on.

It seemed the longer we played the less we missed him so my original thinking must have been wrong.(I said in that post it didn't seem to hurt us after watching 18 games.) I believe I made the statement your referring to much earlier. I would have still liked to see how Lofton would have been used on defense, but
also later in the year I saw some N.O. games and he didn't look as good!!

So all of the above are reasons why I think I had Lofton over rated!!

I believe it was three years ago T.D. got us a veteran corner, the last week in preseason. I
thought he played much better than was expected--was it a guy named Williams? He got a knee injury around game 7 and by then someone else stepped up.

Of course not the steal Samuels was but at the end of that preseason we didn't trust anyone at that position, and I thought it was a great move by T.D. You never really gave T.D. any credit for him; but we argued over it. Your young mind will remember his name (:

Yes a steal every year is an over exaggeration.... We do need a pass rush; we need the Julio's and Ryan's to still get better. He won't get everything fixed this year IMO, but you don't win as many games as we have with an average G.M.

To go farther in the playoffs we need our Qb to play as well in the post season as the regular season!!

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:27 am 
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Remarkable stat of the night was when they said the pick Kaepernick threw was the first INT a 49er had ever thrown in a SB. So, what you really need to win a SB is for your QB to almost be flawless. you take two ro three major Ryan flaws out of the playoffs and we coast into the SB. It is asking a lot but that is what it takes, I'm convinced.

I think the CB was named Brian Williams and, yes, he came in off the NFL scrap heap and helped us hold down the fort a bit. I sort of think Nolan will help us procure talent if he hangs around a while. Lots of the players on that 49er team were guys he found. It is pretty hard to argue with our success in the last five years but just liek the bar for SB winning QBs is high it is high for SB winning GMs and coaches. they have to be damn near flawless and not just a little bit lucky. :up:

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:10 am 
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backnblack wrote:
Remarkable stat of the night was when they said the pick Kaepernick threw was the first INT a 49er had ever thrown in a SB. So, what you really need to win a SB is for your QB to almost be flawless. you take two ro three major Ryan flaws out of the playoffs and we coast into the SB. It is asking a lot but that is what it takes, I'm convinced.:


you know while watching the game last night with the usual suspects, we were discussing this very topic. One of my friends made the point that TD's success will depend greatly on what Smitty chooses to do with the guys he does pick. When you look at the two coaches in the SB, they both made bold moves. One sat his starting QB in week 12 and the other fired his OC in week 15.

The 'boldest' move this season was the outright cutting of Edwards. But that should have been done weeks before and the only reason he was eventually cut was not because he was unproductive, but he was a little b*tch. That should tell you something.

How much does it matter if TD DOES hit it out of the park and has an outstanding draft, if the guys aren't used properly? Get a 2nd rounder and play him at a different position then his natural one. Keeping guys on the field (Jerry) because they are first rounders even when they get outplayed by 3rd and 4th rounders( Peters) . What if we get a monster DE this year, but Smitty plays HIM in am meaningless game and loses him to injury? And think about this in context with the two superbowl coaches. We fired our S and C coach right after the SF loss. But all season long we saw Ryan and the offense have to come from behind to win the game because our D was gassed. The other coaches dont 'wait' till the end of the season if they see something that isn't quite right. One fired his OC, late in the season!

Alot of TD's 'success' rides with Mike Smith. And vice versa;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:13 pm 
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This team has long had issues with personnel use under Smitty. This season, several issues stood out, Edwards, Franks, Turner, Jerry, etc. We didn't pull the plug on Franks returning punts till 16 or 17 weeks into the season. My god Smitty, how long does it take to figure out that the dude sucks as a punt returner? Turner looked pretty worthless for most of the season. I don't care who the player is or how talented he is, if he's, "waiting for the playoffs to turn it on," then he probably shouldn't be on the team. Edwards was worthless, and Jerry is equally so.

I think for the Falcons to win it all, TD is going to have to beef up the offensive and defensive lines. Smitty wants too badly to keep games close, and if games are going to be close, the Falcons need to win the battles at the line, and have enough talent at the skill positions to take care of business.

The Julio Jones trade is sticking out more and more to me as a bad move. I know that many of you think the opposite, but unless Mike Smith commits to being an all out passing offense for 4 quarters, the Julio Jones trade was the wrong move for our organization. We should have used that draft to beef up the lines so that we could better play Smitty ball.

If we're not going to beef up the lines, then we need to go out and get a TE and WR this year, and we need to attempt to be the greatest show on turf. We need to average 35 points a game for the duration of the season. Why? So that we don't look lost in the 2nd half of a playoff game.


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:44 pm 
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BnB wrote
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Remarkable stat of the night was when they said the pick Kaepernick threw was the first INT a 49er had ever thrown in a SB. So, what you really need to win a SB is for your QB to almost be flawless. you take two ro three major Ryan flaws out of the playoffs and we coast into the SB. It is asking a lot but that is what it takes, I'm convinced.


Yes its becoming clear to me the Qb must have a great post season. It is asking a lot and a reason P. Manning, D. Breeze, and others only have one win. 11 TOUCHDOWNS
and no interceptions is so much better than Flacco played during the season.

I don't want to lose in post season again and act surprised we lose if Ryan has two turnovers. I understand their are other positions besides Qb, but the Qb mistakes changes momentum. I thought I knew how important a Qb was, but have come to understand in the Playoffs the turnovers and touch downs are what count.

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:14 pm 
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Fun Gus Wrote
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A lot of TD's 'success' rides with Mike Smith. And vice versa;-)


I think that's always has been the case and the reason we never had two back to back winning season's. Remember keeping someone is a decision too. Sam Baker, and about half our defense at one time or another most have felt was expendable.

I personally don't think it was specifically the Julio Trade but the truth is I don't see how
Thomas D. gets us a pass rush in one off season, I agree that his 4-7th picks have been lackluster and once every two years you should hit on a 4th rounder.

I just can't bitch him out for us going to the Championship game; and I won't beat him up till we go backwards next year. I don't exactly see how he does that, but I think
Coach Smith takes players not as good as the opposition and wins with them. Yea everyone will LOVE that statement (:

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:05 am 
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Cyril wrote:
Fun Gus Wrote
Quote:

A lot of TD's 'success' rides with Mike Smith. And vice versa;-)


I think that's always has been the case and the reason we never had two back to back winning season's. Remember keeping someone is a decision too. Sam Baker, and about half our defense at one time or another most have felt was expendable.

I personally don't think it was specifically the Julio Trade but the truth is I don't see how
Thomas D. gets us a pass rush in one off season, I agree that his 4-7th picks have been lackluster and once every two years you should hit on a 4th rounder.

I just can't bitch him out for us going to the Championship game; and I won't beat him up till we go backwards next year. I don't exactly see how he does that, but I think
Coach Smith takes players not as good as the opposition and wins with them. Yea everyone will LOVE that statement (:


I don't think anyone would argue we're as talented as a team like SF. Or even Green Bay. We have talent at a few areas, but SF has better OL (by a mile), RB (by a mile...they have 3 guys I'd love to have), good WR, 2 good TEs and an all star defense. The only group that is way better for the Falcons is QB (and maybe WR).

It's not fair to compare to SF, because they had a top 10 pick for many years running it seems like. But similarly with NO. Very similar defensive talent. NO has better RBs (3 to 4), OL by far, TE, and versatile WRs.

Falcons need to beef up the trenches, but also really need more talent (and depth) at RB, TE and legit 3rd/4th receivers. We can't overhaul the OL, DL, and LBs in an offseason. We can radically upgrade RB, TE, WR while getting a core piece for the DL and a core piece for the OL. Do it every year. Every year.


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:23 am 
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Cyril wrote:
So all of the above are reasons why I think I had Lofton over rated!!

Took you long enough ;)
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14099

Cyril wrote:
f course not the steal Samuels was but at the end of that preseason we didn't trust anyone at that position, and I thought it was a great move by T.D. You never really gave T.D. any credit for him; but we argued over it. Your young mind will remember his name (:

Actually I did.

viewtopic.php?p=109164#p109164

I just didn't let it trump all of the other questionable moves.

fun gus wrote:
How much does it matter if TD DOES hit it out of the park and has an outstanding draft, if the guys aren't used properly? Get a 2nd rounder and play him at a different position then his natural one. Keeping guys on the field (Jerry) because they are first rounders even when they get outplayed by 3rd and 4th rounders( Peters) .

I think you are conflating Smitty's and TD's responsibilities. Almost immediately after drafting Konz did TD himself call him a "guard/center": http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/ ... peter-konz

Also Jerry played because Peters was injured for 6 weeks. Once Peters returned, he was out of shape and had to be eased back into the lineup. And truth be told, Jerry was actually decent in the month of December. The decision to keep Jerry on the roster was made in the off-season by the GM who rules over all during that half of the calendar year.

RobertAP wrote:
The Julio Jones trade is sticking out more and more to me as a bad move. I know that many of you think the opposite, but unless Mike Smith commits to being an all out passing offense for 4 quarters, the Julio Jones trade was the wrong move for our organization. We should have used that draft to beef up the lines so that we could better play Smitty ball.

The reason why I've shifted my opinion on this matter is because of Julio's play in the 49er game, as well as throughout the end of the year and the playoffs.

Julio's presence, coupled with that of Roddy & Tony gave the Falcons the lone "special" quality about them, that allowed them to get as far in the season as they did. The inability to be a dynamic passing game is what is holding back the Houston Texans, held back the Falcons previously (pre-trade). It's what has propelled the last 5 NFC Champions to the Super Bowl, including a run-first team like the 49ers with the switch from Alex Smith to Colin Kaepernick, who along with Joe Flacco were probably the two best downfield passers in 2012.

I don't think the trade was a homerun by any means, because of course the trade-off for that is being weaker at other areas of the roster, including the running game, offensive line (two areas that were strengths for both SB teams), as well as potentially defense.

Overall, it's either a wash or slightly more positive than negative given how far the Falcons went this year.

Cyril wrote:
Yes its becoming clear to me the Qb must have a great post season. It is asking a lot and a reason P. Manning, D. Breeze, and others only have one win. 11 TOUCHDOWNS
and no interceptions is so much better than Flacco played during the season.

I don't want to lose in post season again and act surprised we lose if Ryan has two turnovers. I understand their are other positions besides Qb, but the Qb mistakes changes momentum. I thought I knew how important a Qb was, but have come to understand in the Playoffs the turnovers and touch downs are what count.

You could have taken that post in one direction Cyril, and I'm glad you didn't.

Because you pointed out examples of other QBs that haven't gotten it done. Examples of Manning, Brees, and now even Brady is in that boat due to his postseason struggles over the past 5 years, is that more often than not these guys don't do it. But all you need really is that one year where you do elevate your play and prevent those turnovers.

I agree, Ryan's turnovers were major reasons why the Seahawks and 49ers games were so closely contested and in one case ultimately lost. But I do like the fact that Ryan played arguably his best football of the season in the playoffs. The turnovers were unfortunate, because when you think about it that INT to Earl Thomas, and that botched snap were really his only 2 mistakes of the playoffs. And of course the INT vs. SF was because Roddy slipped, neither's fault. The same as the INT in the endzone vs. GB.

The direction you could have taken that post was the specific mentioning of Ryan and the suggestion that he is incapable of doing it, when I don't think that's the case at all. Given his play besides those 2 TOs, I think he's shown he "has what it takes." It's just about the breaks going the Falcons way.

And I think the past few Super Bowl winners show you that is what it is really about. The breaks that went in the favor of the Ravens this year are plays like that Rahim Moore botched coverage vs. DEN, Vernon Davis dropping that bomb in the SB, etc. We saw it last year with the Giants, with Gronk being injured, the Kyle Williams punt muff, etc.

Ryan could play a decade here in Atlanta, and 9 out of those ten years, he never gets those breaks. But all that really matters is the 1 time he does get those.

IMO, I think the Falcons got the majority of the breaks this year, except they didn't in the NFC Championship Game. It's one of the reasons why I think this year was regrettable since it may be our best shot for some time.

But for me, the criticism shouldn't be that they can't do it, it's that they didn't do it. I think far too many fans think in the former terms at the end of the season as opposed to the latter. I thank you Cyril for seemingly not going down that same path.

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:17 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
fun gus wrote:
How much does it matter if TD DOES hit it out of the park and has an outstanding draft, if the guys aren't used properly? Get a 2nd rounder and play him at a different position then his natural one. Keeping guys on the field (Jerry) because they are first rounders even when they get outplayed by 3rd and 4th rounders( Peters) .

I think you are conflating Smitty's and TD's responsibilities. Almost immediately after drafting Konz did TD himself call him a "guard/center": http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/ ... peter-konz.


That's kind of making my point for me Pudge. I mean, you have what 'TD Says' vs the combine and most of the sports media and draftniks calling the guy a 'natural CENTER'. Just because he 'might' have played 'some' guard during his college time doesn't make him a 'hybrid'. I mean, hell he played D in high school, let's plug him in there! :roll:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/footba ... 82691.html

Positives: Tough, nasty center with an all-around game. Explosive at the point, displays a large degree of quickness and rarely gives up an inch to defenders. Blocks with good knee bend, gets leverage on opponents and is strong at the point. Gets movement run blocking, turns opponents off the line and works hard to finish off blocks. Displays the ability to adjust and pick up stunts or blitzes thrown by opponents. Keeps his head on a swivel, works well with teammates and displays a nice degree of awareness. Effective with shotgun snaps. Fluid moving on his feet and gets out to the second level then removes linebackers from the action.

Negatives: Lacks great footwork in pass protection. Not a power blocking lineman.

If it works, fine. But I still dont understand all this 'cross training'. I would prefer to play guys in thier natural positions, especially when they are green. But to be fair, the OL did it's job in the playoffs when it mattered, while the D shut down.

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:52 pm 
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I get that fun gus. I was just pointing out that it's not as if Dimitroff chose Konz with the intent of playing him only at center and then Smitty went behind his back and decided to try him out at guard. They drafted Konz specifically because they felt he was versatile enough to play both guard and center. They wanted him for short-term at guard (competing with Manuwai & Reynolds) and long-term at center (competing with Hawley to replace McClure in 2013 and beyond).

I figure you would appreciate the cross-training more than most, since the point of it is in the case of injuries. :wink:

I hope that the Falcons intend to move Konz to center eventually, and that his stint at guard was a short-term stopgap as opposed to the long-term plan. I think Konz can be an effective guard, but I don't think he possesses the tools to be a top-level player there. He's neither powerful enough to create consistent push in the ground game, nor does he have ideal footwork for playing on an island in pass protection, which is often the case at right guard. While I also don't think he'll be an elite center, I think he can certainly be one of the better centers in the league, thus why it's his natural position and his upside is higher there. I think he needs to speed up his hands in pass protection and get better at blocking linebackers downfield, but otherwise he's ready to play the pivot.

But I have the feeling that besides maybe a 3rd or 4th round pick, the Falcons aren't going to make a huge effort to upgrade their right guard position. I think they want to give Joe Hawley a legit shot to make himself a fixture going forward, because of TD's loyalty to his own picks, which means him playing center, and Konz remaining at right guard. He'll get pushed probably by Mike Johnson, and they may add a backup guard to replace Garrett Reynolds in the mid/late rounds and give them an insurance policy in case Hawley walks after 2013 (its the final year of his contract) and Konz does move to center.

So I think you're going to see another year of Konz playing "out of position."

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
I think they want to give Joe Hawley a legit shot to make himself a fixture going forward, because of TD's loyalty to his own picks, which means him playing center, and Konz remaining at right guard. He'll get pushed probably by Mike Johnson, and they may add a backup guard to replace Garrett Reynolds in the mid/late rounds and give them an insurance policy in case Hawley walks after 2013 (its the final year of his contract) and Konz does move to center.

So I think you're going to see another year of Konz playing "out of position."


see what I mean? We will have a guy playing out of position due to TD's stubborn 'loyalty' to his 'picks'. How is that not a bad thing? :beef:

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Cyril wrote:
I just can't bitch him out for us going to the Championship game; and I won't beat him up till we go backwards next year. I don't exactly see how he does that, but I think
Coach Smith takes players not as good as the opposition and wins with them. Yea everyone will LOVE that statement (:

Part of the reason I bitch about TD is because of his former employer, New England.

Look, it's the difference between being bold and aggresive as the Patriots seem to be, and being complacent like the Falcons. I'm not going to sit here and pretend like every move the Patriots make is genius or works out (e.g. Ochocinco, Haynesworth, Leigh Bodden). But they seem like a team that is striving for more with some of the low-key moves they make.

TD wants to develop the current talent. I get that, and I don't think that is the wrong way to go about things. But I think you have to sprinkle in some aggressiveness every now and then.

Examples of the types of moves that the Pats have made that I'm talking about are:

- Jake Ballard claiming
- Jeff Demps signing post-Olympics
- signed Brian Waters prior to 2011
- cut Brandon Meriweather prior to 2011
- Look at the contributions of their 2012 draft class: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... -afc-east/

Compare these with some of these decisions by TD:

- Struggles of nickel CB for years. Yes, he finds Robert McClain this year, but only after "failures" of Chevis Jackson, Chris Owens, and Dominique Franks.
- Not restructuring/cutting Turner last year. Even if Asante trade is the most brilliant move ever, then paying Turner $7 million this year to be the worst starting RB in the NFL was one of the dumbest ever, making it a wash.
- Trade out of #84 pick with Baltimore, who takes Bernard Pierce, the top backup RB in the league this year (only player with 500+ rushing yds without starting a game). We get Lamar Holmes and Jonathan Massaquoi. They'll get a chance to prove their merit in the future, but if we had stayed put and taken Pierce, we'd have ZERO concern about our running back situation going forward.
- Keeping Brett Romberg & Kirk Chambers on the roster last year when it was clear at the midpoint that the Falcons OL needed help. Could have stashed a veteran for 2013 instead of either of those players. Did the same thing with Harland Gunn this year.
- They don't claim Ballard, when they could have. Ballard like Palmer is part of the undrafted 2010 TE draft class. But unlike Palmer or Chase Coffman, Ballard has actually started and produced at TE in the NFL.
- Didn't sign Trent Edwards last January, opting instead to keep Chris Redman. Redman gets cut at the end of camp, while Edwards has a good enough preseason to get 1 year added to his deal with Eagles. The Falcons have a similar opportunity and could sign David Garrard right now.

I don't think TD is a bad GM. I just wish he sprinkle more moves and finds like the Asante Samuel trade or Robert McClain signing or Sam Baker patience. I need less Kerry Meier, Peria Jerry, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe TD ain't so bad after all?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:21 am 
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In 2010 Pudge Wrote
Quote:
Am I saying he's bad? Nope, because he is not. Am I saying he's not a significant contributor to this team's success? Nope, because he is.


Then Pudge Wrote
Quote:



I am happy that we have Lofton. I'd rather have him as the 2nd linebacker in the nickel than Nicholas or Peterson.


Geez Pudge in 2010 I listened to you in every way; and remember you concluded Lofton
was a significant contributer to our success!! Since you say your answers are usually
" the most founded on current football being played " I stuck with you as long as I could.

Now you cut me off at the knees for believing in you?? (:

Are the above observations better now in 2013?? (: Which should I just strike and
mark as just venting (:

_________________
"Everything Counts"
Cyril


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