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 Post subject: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:20 pm 
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I'm to the point that I think that TD is a below average GM. He had a lot to work with in his first couple of years, and he came out looking golden. Now that we're cruising along with a great QB, we're not really adding enough talent in the draft to sustain the level of play that we have had. We gave up the farm to get Julio, and the lack of talent on the defense is such that we're reaching with our draft picks to fill positions of need. We should be at the point that we're drafting BPA, but because of horrible mismanagement, we have multiple glaring holes that we don't have the resources to address.

We're losing players because we can't afford to pay them, and we're bringing in old guys like Umenyiora to try to fill the lack of talent, but that's simply not going to work for long. Ryan is going to sign a contract that makes him one of the highest paid QBs in the league soon, which will really complicate trying to improve the team through free agency, and will make it difficult to retain talent going forward.

Unless Thomas Dimitroff pulls a magic rabbit out of his butt, this year has Superbowl or bust written all over it. Next year, without Gonzo and with Roddy starting to show signs of age, this team takes a major step backwards, and the talent that we have gotten in the past 3 drafts (aside from Jones) proves to be nothing more than filler material. We're going to go through Ryan's best years with a considerable lack of talent, and will be mired in mediocrity.

Am I alone in this fear?


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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:32 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:08 pm 
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You know I DISAGREE Robert!! You so overstate any case you may have?

Horrible mismanagement?? Is that why we went from the joke of the league to winning season's with a playoff win and our Superstar Qb forgetting his " A " game in the playoffs.

You've just got to admit if Ryan is a " great QB." He forgets it in post season". You seem to forget that Picking Ryan was about a 60-40 choice from the fans? I agree Thomas D.made the right choice.

Its always Super Bowl or bust with you and that's fine, because someday you might "hit". Believing Thomas D. is a below average Gm then begs the question why the Falcons have not been a below average team in the last 5 years? If its not Thomas D.
with you then its Mike Smith that can't win??

Well I won't ramble on, you have the odds at your side every year; that we may soon go backwards?? You'll be right someday!!

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:53 pm 
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Let's take a look at our drafts under Dimitroff
1st year
Matt Ryan - Star
Sam Baker - solid starter
Curtis Lofton - gone
Chevis Jackson - Bust
Harry Douglas - career backup
Thomas Decoud - pro-bowler
Robert James - nothing
Kroy Biermann - below average starter/backup
Thomas Brown - nothing
Wilrey Fontnot - nothing
Keith Zinger - nothing

2nd year
Peria Jerry - Bust
William Moore - pro-bowler
Christopher Owens - gone
Lawrence Sidbury - nothing
William Middleton - nothing
Garrett Reynolds - career backup
Spencer Adkins - career backup
Vance Walker - career backup

3rd year
Sean Weatherspoon - solid starter (possible pro-bowler)
Corey Peters - below average starter
Mike Johnson - nothing
Joe Hawley - nothing
Dominique Franks - nothing
Kerry Meier - nothing
Shann Schillinger - nothing

4th year
Julio Jones - Star (and he better be... Cost us 2 firsts, a second, and two fourth rounders.)
Akeem Dent - below average starter
Jacquizz Rodgers - apparent career backup/situational player (I happen to think the kid has talent, but TD apparently doesn't have much confidence in him)
Matt Bosher - solid punter
Andrew Jackson - nothing
Cliff Matthews - nothing

5th year
Peter Konz - below average starter playing out of position (might be playing in position this year, so we'll see)
Lamar Holmes - ?
Bradie Ewing - ?
Jonathan Massaquoi - ?
Charles Mitchell - ?
Travian Robinson - ?



Aside from his first draft, Dimitroff has managed to get one or two decent players from each of his drafts. I am curious how other teams have fared over the same time period, but from where I'm standing, this is not the makings of a stellar team. The success of this team is largely due to the guy throwing the ball. Good on Dimitroff for drafting him, but outside of that move, the rest of this looks pretty meh.

This draft, he's started out by taking a couple of CBs who he reached to get... The first round pick was a 2nd round talent, and the 2nd round pick was a 3rd round talent. Dimitroff is not as great as some of you think. I used to like the man, but as time has gone on, his decisions have gotten worse and worse.

Superbowl or bust! (cause we're not going to be going anywhere after this year)


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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:01 am 
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Yeah, I've not been pleased with TD's drafting. He's an admitted needs based drafter, so we don't get good value. Combined with trading away picks, we'll often take a 5th rounder with our 3rd (if we're missing a 4th) to make sure we get "our guy."

That works for a year or two, but eventually it catches up with you because you're acquiring overall inferior talent.

I really thought he'd build with some cheap FAs this year (at DT, C) and add DL difference makers and 3rd/4th round TE/WR so we're not quite so reliant on no one getting injured. It would have been pretty close to that simple.

As is, we have a lot of holes, no penetration on the OL, and no developing talent on offense to take advantage of the matchup problems the trio creates (and provide some cushion when one guy leaves.) We wait until it's crisis mode and then get a pick, instead of having players lined up and developing.

The Ryan pick has pretty much been the thing that has made this team.


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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:33 am 
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okay, Im bringing this from the 'Roost, so I cannot vouch for it's authenticity. However, maybe the King of All Stats could weigh in with his thoughts on these numbers:

Percentages of draftee success (played starting positions more than one season)
Round 1 - 66%
Round 2 - 52%
Round 3
Round 4
Round 5
Round 6
Round 7
All Rounds - 35%

Percentages of draftee success (started one game) - 87%

Percentages of draftees playing
2 seasons - 72%
3 seasons - 62%
5 seasons - 47%

Percentages of draftees starting for:
3 seasons - 30%
5 seasons - 21%

Percentage of draftees as starters (compared to UFAs) - 88%

Percentage of draftees starting 8 games their first season - 15%

Dimitroff's success record for all draftees as a Falcon - 68% (very high for 5 years)

:king:

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:11 am 
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I believe you judge a Gm. OR MORE THAN DRAFTS!! The Gm. should pick the head coach, he should also get on the same page as the head coach, (very few Gm's do this)
but I don't need to defend his drafting or his great trade....

Some act like most Gms stay around for years when in fact most fail as often as the coaches they pick. I thought it was last year or bust? Their is a lot more to this team than Tony G. although he's the best tight end to play this well over his prime.

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:08 pm 
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I had a 2nd round grade on Trufant. 3rd round grade on Alford. But I don't have a problem if the Falcons took them a round or half a round earlier than what was ideal. The simple truth is that this was not a top-heavy draft class. And 2nd round talents are gonna get pushed up into the 1st round because of that lack of ideal 1st round candidates, and the subsequent domino effect that will happen later on.

I don't have a problem with these picks. I'm normally the guy that is gonna jump down TD's case, and I certainly am critical of his past drafts but I like these picks. CBs are highly underrated and we got 2 good players. Are they going to be great players? That remains to be seen, but I definitely see the potential, and don't have a problem that the Falcons had higher grades on them than I. I'll "pound the table" that Peria Jerry was a bad pick and reach, but not gonna do so here. Jerry had major durability concerns, Trufant however was extremely durable in college, and Alford adds immediate special teams potential.

Cyril wrote:
You've just got to admit if Ryan is a " great QB." He forgets it in post season".

This again? :roll: :beef:

The Falcons aren't a Super Bowl-caliber team. THey got as far as they got last year because their 4 best players: Ryan, Tony, Roddy, and Julio played "extra" good last year, and they got some breaks last year, primarily with Chris Clemons getting hurt. Going forward, they're going to have to play better on defense. The corners will help a lot more there than most probably think. And they need to run the ball more effectively. We'll see what Steven Jackson does in that area. He's no Gio Bernard, but I'll be rooting for him.

I can't sit here and say that TD has made mistakes this off-season, outside maybe the Sam Baker deal. He may not have done everything I would have preferred (keeping Abe & Clabo, signing Bradshaw), but I'm not going to say his decisions were the wrong ones. They're just different.

I think TD is a good GM. I don't think he's always done a great job here, and I have been very vocal about that. But I don't have any problems with what he's done over the past 48 hours.

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:57 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
I think TD is a good GM. I don't think he's always done a great job here, and I have been very vocal about that. But I don't have any problems with what he's done over the past 48 hours.

:up:

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:55 pm 
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Cyril wrote:

Quote:
You've just got to admit if Ryan is a " great QB." He forgets it in post season".

Pudge then comments " This again"??


YES!! Look some are saying Ryan is great!! I believe he is above average but not great. As you've pointed out, and many others, to be great you must play your best in post season. Ryan doesn't do that!!

Pudge wrote
Quote:

"The Falcons aren't a Super Bowl-caliber team."


I agree and that includes their Qb. What's the argument? It has been said that Ryan is a great Qb. Your opinion is either he is or he's not. I just don't think Ryan is great!!
If he was he'd do better in post season!!

Ryan makes us a much better team, I'm only responding to Ryan being great while T.D. has been said to be below average...... T.D. being said to be below average;
is just a f**** joke. Just like saying Ryan is great is also a joke.

How can anyone say in one sentence that Thomas D. is below average and in the next second say Ryan is great.?? Now that's a beef (:

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:39 pm 
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Ryan is why this team has been successful for the past 5 years. Our defense has sucked through that entire period. Our run game has had its moments, but most of us acknowledge that the run game couldn't get it done when it counted. (remember all of the 3rd and 4th and shorts, or goal line stands when we couldn't get it done?)

Look at the major lack of young talent on this team. Look at the state of our OL, DL, and LB's. Dimitroff has had 5 years to build this team, but that whole, "process," went right out the window the moment that we decided to mortgage the future for Julio Jones. Now, we're reaching on picks to fill needs, and playing Russian roulette in a draft class with little talent.

Obviously, we disagree on all of this stuff Cyril, but I challenge you to look at the past 3 drafts and tell me what the grand plan is here. I think that TD doesn't have a plan at this point; He's in damage control mode, and the franchise is in big trouble.

I predict that after the draft, we will get Ryan's contract signed, and it will be for 6 years and 120 million. After Ryan has signed his contract, we'll bring Abe back, or bring in Freeney. I think we'll bring in someone else to compete at an LB spot. (Dansby perhaps?)

Bringing back Abe, and signing Osi will prove to be completely useless as both players will have down years. We will continue to be torched by teams that can run well, and by teams that have decent TEs. Overall, our defense will look worse than last year's defense. We will get absolutely gashed in the middle with Babineaux starting to show signs of age, and Peters hitting the ceiling of his ability. (IMHO, the middle of the DL is the biggest weakness on this defense)

On offense, we will take a step back as well. Losing Clabo and McClure will prove to be a HUGE problem. The offensive line will give up more sacks this year than in any previous year under Mike Smith. In addition, Jackson will only average around 3.8 ypc. The passing numbers will still be there for Ryan and Jones, but the numbers for White and Gonzo will be considerably down, with White coming up short of 1000 yards receiving. Jackson and Rodgers catching passes out of the backfield will help to make up for the reduced production from White and Gonzo. By the time the year is over, Toilolo will have around 300-350 yards and a couple of TDs. Coffman might make the cut, but he will see very limited playing time.

I still think we win enough games to make the playoffs, but age and lack of talent keep us from going anywhere in the playoffs. The key here is that our offense will not be as potent as last year. We will see pretty early on that the offensive line is going to be a joke, and that we won't be able to run up the score on people like we did last year. That said, that might play into our hands a bit, as we won't be able to go into, "prevent mode," so we won't see as much, "implosion," this year. Then again, the coaching staff might try to play for the last possession again, and I don't think that will work in our favor this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:47 pm 
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RobertAP wrote:
Ryan is why this team has been successful for the past 5 years. Our defense has sucked through that entire period. Our run game has had its moments, but most of us acknowledge that the run game couldn't get it done when it counted. (remember all of the 3rd and 4th and shorts, or goal line stands when we couldn't get it done?)

Look at the major lack of young talent on this team. Look at the state of our OL, DL, and LB's. Dimitroff has had 5 years to build this team, but that whole, "process," went right out the window the moment that we decided to mortgage the future for Julio Jones. Now, we're reaching on picks to fill needs, and playing Russian roulette in a draft class with little talent.

Obviously, we disagree on all of this stuff Cyril, but I challenge you to look at the past 3 drafts and tell me what the grand plan is here. I think that TD doesn't have a plan at this point; He's in damage control mode, and the franchise is in big trouble.

I predict that after the draft, we will get Ryan's contract signed, and it will be for 6 years and 120 million. After Ryan has signed his contract, we'll bring Abe back, or bring in Freeney. I think we'll bring in someone else to compete at an LB spot. (Dansby perhaps?)

Bringing back Abe, and signing Osi will prove to be completely useless as both players will have down years. We will continue to be torched by teams that can run well, and by teams that have decent TEs. Overall, our defense will look worse than last year's defense. We will get absolutely gashed in the middle with Babineaux starting to show signs of age, and Peters hitting the ceiling of his ability. (IMHO, the middle of the DL is the biggest weakness on this defense)

On offense, we will take a step back as well. Losing Clabo and McClure will prove to be a HUGE problem. The offensive line will give up more sacks this year than in any previous year under Mike Smith. In addition, Jackson will only average around 3.8 ypc. The passing numbers will still be there for Ryan and Jones, but the numbers for White and Gonzo will be considerably down, with White coming up short of 1000 yards receiving. Jackson and Rodgers catching passes out of the backfield will help to make up for the reduced production from White and Gonzo. By the time the year is over, Toilolo will have around 300-350 yards and a couple of TDs. Coffman might make the cut, but he will see very limited playing time.

I still think we win enough games to make the playoffs, but age and lack of talent keep us from going anywhere in the playoffs. The key here is that our offense will not be as potent as last year. We will see pretty early on that the offensive line is going to be a joke, and that we won't be able to run up the score on people like we did last year. That said, that might play into our hands a bit, as we won't be able to go into, "prevent mode," so we won't see as much, "implosion," this year. Then again, the coaching staff might try to play for the last possession again, and I don't think that will work in our favor this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:12 pm 
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It is obviously not Superbowl or bust in the eyes of TD he only drafted one starter and a bunch of depth. Barring an injury outside of Trufant, who in this draft class will get some meaningful snaps? I like the Mopanga and Goodman picks, but are they ready to contribute right now and be better than the guys we currently have? If I had to throw any salt at the draft I would say that I am a little disappointed that the Falcons didnt draft a player to compete with Harry Douglass.

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:18 pm 
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Cyril wrote:
YES!! Look some are saying Ryan is great!! I believe he is above average but not great. As you've pointed out, and many others, to be great you must play your best in post season. Ryan doesn't do that!!

This is why I argue with you Cyril, because you clearly weren't paying attention this past January. You contend that because Ryan had 2 too many turnovers and Flacco didn't, you contend Ryan wasn't playing his best. You're right, there was room for improvement with Ryan. There always is, unless you complete 100% of your passes. But Ryan did elevate his game in the playoffs.

Ryan completed 70% of his passes for nearly 650 yards & 6 TDs in the playoffs against the Seahawks and 49ers. Remember that combined the Seahawks and 49ers allowed 34 TDs all year long, an average of 1.06 per game. Ryan threw 3 against both of those defenses. The Seahawks and 49ers were arguably the top 2 defenses in the league, and Ryan burned them for 650 yards and 6 scores.

But please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like your argument is that because of 5 plays: 3 INTs, 1 on when he got greedy (Earl Thomas), 1 on a miscommunication with Gonzo (Wagner), 1 when his receiver slipped (Culliver), 1 fumble vs. 49ers, and presumably the final throw to Roddy in the NFCCG, he wasn't great.

And again it sounds like to me you're equating GREATNESS with PERFECTION. A QB isn't allowed to have 5 mistakes (2 of which weren't his fault) against arguably the 2 best defenses in the league?

Is Ryan great? Depends on what your definition of great is?

Is greatness = successfully leading your team to the Super Bowl? If so, then most QBs aren't great for the majority of their careers.

Is greatness= capable of leading your team to the Super Bowl? Then I think Ryan is great. The Falcons didn't go, but Ryan did about all he could reasonably do to get them there.

Is greatness being on par with some HOF quarterbacks? Then I think Ryan passes there. Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Kurt Warner, I think Ryan is as good if not better than all those guys.

Is greatness being elite? i.e. being arguably the best at your position? If so, then I would agree Ryan isn't great.

But if you're saying he's not great because he made a handful of mistakes and the Falcons didn't go to the Super Bowl last year, that's ridiculous.

RobertAP wrote:
Losing Clabo and McClure will prove to be a HUGE problem

What a difference a few months makes...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17783&start=0
RobertAP wrote:
McClure should be gone already...


It was like I was telling fun gus last year, I'm good with growing with what we have. I like our QB. I like our head coach, and I like our GM. I think of the 3, TD hasn't quite held up his end of the bargain. But if I was in Arthur Blank's shoes, after giving Ryan his 5 or 6-yr extension, I'd extend Mike Smith & Dimitroff to have their contracts expire at the same time as Ryan. Smitty is signed through 2014. It's the Rooney Model. You hire the right people and you grow with them. If Ryan gets a 6-yr deal, then you presumably have a 6-yr window.

If the OL stinks this year, then next year you go out and you make it better. The last 3 Super Bowl champs made few significant moves the off-seasons preceding their titles. Each season basically is something you throw at a wall, and you hope that one of them sticks. If so, then you're incredibly lucky. If not, c'est la vie.

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:00 am 
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The combination of losing McClure AND Clabo is what I cited. Obviously, I don't care too much for McClure. I'm not going back on that at all. If you keep McClure or Clabo, then you have a hole to fill with an inexperienced player, but since we let them both go, we have 2 of 5 positions that are going to be filled with scrubs. Is everyone else comfortable with starting two of these guys: Holmes, Reynolds, Johnson, and Hawley? The right side of our offensive line is going to be a total train wreck.

The problem, Pudge, is that the holes from lack of talent are going to get bigger and bigger over time. Right now, I think we all know that we have a problem at RG/RT. We also have problems at DT, DE, ILB, and OLB. Next year, we're going to have additional problems at TE. The year after, we're going to have problems at WR, RB, DE, etc. Unless TD can find some good value later in the draft, this team isn't going to be able to keep up only getting worthwhile players from the first 3 rounds of the draft, especially if TD keeps trading those top picks away.

I wouldn't be making this point if we had not traded 2 firsts and a second for Julio Jones. If TD had gotten starters with those three picks, then we'd probably be golden right about now. Ditto with trading away the 3rd round pick this year. TD could have used that pick to find us someone else who could compete for a position. We lost that pick because we traded up for a CB in a draft with quite a bit of CB talent. Then, we draft another CB with our 2nd round pick for depth. We could easily have used a later round pick to acquire a kick/punt return specialist. Using a 2nd rounder for that? Come on. That said, I think that pick will end up being our best pick in this draft.

I did say before that I wouldn't mind us using our later picks to trade up, but I also stated that we should try to acquire additional top 100 picks either this year or next. TD, once again, gave up a top 100 pick. If you keep giving away the option to pick up those top 100 players, your team is going to suck, and we are well on our way. The Falcons have given up 1/3 of their top 100 picks in the past 3 years. We're not good enough to do that, not when we're losing people like Robinson, Grimes, Clabo, McClure, and Abraham.


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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:23 am 
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Yes, I am comfortable with one of those guys starting on the O-line. Holmes was underwhelming last summer, but in very limited snaps vs. the Giants, I was impressed. I know some may say, Pudge, really you're making a judgment off 7 snaps when he was working as a 6th OL? Yep. The beef I had with Holmes in the preseason was he was very "methodical" in his movements, which can't cut it in the NFL but showed much more explosiveness in limited reps against New York. That's improvement. So I don't have much of any concerns about whether that is going to be a weakness moving forward.

Reynolds is a competent starter. Konz played well in the playoffs, so I don't have as many issues about him starting going forward. Hawley I think has been a decent center when he's played in the past. Johnson is a player I like. If he is starting, I don't think it's going to be a major issue.

Are any of these guys Tyson Clabo? No. But could they grow into that? Sure. And if they aren't, then we'll get somebody else.

I don't have a problem that the Falcons traded the 92nd draft pick away. The Falcons don't have as many needs as they did in 2011. They are a much better football team now, and thus holding onto a late 3rd rounder isn't as huge a priority. The issue with the Jones trade was the Falcons gave up a 1st or 2nd rounder. I throw in the 2 4ths constantly in my arguments against the trade, but in truth they weren't that big, because when you look at the players picked at that point and over the next 15-20 picks after those picks, we didn't really miss anything glaring. We could have gotten a good role player with those picks, but ultimately we just missed out on Chris Owens or Bradie Ewing type of players. Meh.

There were only 3 players drafted between Pick No. 92 and 127 that I'm slightly disappointed we didn't have an opportunity to get: Zaviar Gooden, Sean Porter, and Johnthan Franklin. Other than that? Meh. I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it.

We also have problems at RB, LT, LG, and FS. And some of these issues will be problems next year and the year after. You're not going to solve all your problems in one off-season.

The Falcons had 2 priorities this off-season: 1) improve the running game and 2) Add more impact playmakers on defense

Did they hit 2 HRs with that? No. They signed Steven Jackson and reshuffled the O-line. We'll see how that goes. Did they get great playmakers on defense? No. But they got 2 good CBs that could solidify at least that part of the secondary for the next 5-7 years if they work. If they don't, then we'll move on and get someone else.

Look I realized that the NFC CHampionship that I'll just enjoy it and hope for the best. It was 8 years since the Falcons made it that far in the playoffs. It was 6 years prior to that. The Packers & Saints both won Super Bowls 3 years after losing in the NFCCG. THe 49ers went back to back. THe Eagles went back to back for 4 years, but then have only gotten that far once in the past 8 years. Panthers and Seahawks haven't been back in 7 years. I'm hoping the Falcons go the way of the Packers, Saints, and/or 49ers rather than the Eages, etc.

It is what it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:41 am 
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RobertAP wrote:
Let's take a look at our drafts under Dimitroff
1st year
Matt Ryan - Star
Sam Baker - solid starter
Curtis Lofton - gone
Chevis Jackson - Bust
Harry Douglas - career backup
Thomas Decoud - pro-bowler
Robert James - nothing
Kroy Biermann - below average starter/backup
Thomas Brown - nothing
Wilrey Fontnot - nothing
Keith Zinger - nothing

2nd year
Peria Jerry - Bust
William Moore - pro-bowler
Christopher Owens - gone
Lawrence Sidbury - nothing
William Middleton - nothing
Garrett Reynolds - career backup
Spencer Adkins - career backup
Vance Walker - career backup

3rd year
Sean Weatherspoon - solid starter (possible pro-bowler)
Corey Peters - below average starter
Mike Johnson - nothing
Joe Hawley - nothing
Dominique Franks - nothing
Kerry Meier - nothing
Shann Schillinger - nothing

4th year
Julio Jones - Star (and he better be... Cost us 2 firsts, a second, and two fourth rounders.)
Akeem Dent - below average starter
Jacquizz Rodgers - apparent career backup/situational player (I happen to think the kid has talent, but TD apparently doesn't have much confidence in him)
Matt Bosher - solid punter
Andrew Jackson - nothing
Cliff Matthews - nothing

5th year
Peter Konz - below average starter playing out of position (might be playing in position this year, so we'll see)
Lamar Holmes - ?
Bradie Ewing - ?
Jonathan Massaquoi - ?
Charles Mitchell - ?
Travian Robinson - ?



Aside from his first draft, Dimitroff has managed to get one or two decent players from each of his drafts. I am curious how other teams have fared over the same time period, but from where I'm standing, this is not the makings of a stellar team. The success of this team is largely due to the guy throwing the ball. Good on Dimitroff for drafting him, but outside of that move, the rest of this looks pretty meh.

This draft, he's started out by taking a couple of CBs who he reached to get... The first round pick was a 2nd round talent, and the 2nd round pick was a 3rd round talent. Dimitroff is not as great as some of you think. I used to like the man, but as time has gone on, his decisions have gotten worse and worse.

Superbowl or bust! (cause we're not going to be going anywhere after this year)



from the afmb:

Every player Thomas Dimitroff has drafted since 2009 in rounds 5-7 is still in the league.That's nothing short of ridiculous, and too good to be a fluke.

In 2009
William Middleton, CB, 5th round, Jacksonville Jaguars - has seen action in 49 games since being drafted, and has started 12. Current starting nickelback for the Jags.
Garrett Reynolds, OG, 5th round, Atlanta Falcons - currently penciled in as the starter at RG in 2012. Has improved greatly since being drafted, impressing even me, his harshest critic, because I absolutely hated him in 2011. In 2012, he was a great interior pass blocker and improved his run blocking dramatically.
Spencer Adkins, LB, 6th round, Baltimore Ravens - largely a special teamer, having seen action in 24 games and started 1.
Vance Walker, DT, 7th round, Oakland Raiders - saw action all 16 games of every season as a Falcon except for 2009, where he was there for 10. Starter 11 of them. 5 sacks over the last two years and probably tied with Babs for our most consistent defensive tackle last year. Currently projected to start for the Raiders - and they're so comfortable with him as a starter that they only drafted one defensive tackle in the 2013 draft, and it was in the 6th round.

In 2010
Dominique Franks, CB, 5th round, Atlanta Falcons - not a big fan of his, but you can't deny that he's come a long way. Has played in 32 games as a Falcon, starting 4 of them, with 3 interceptions and 8 PDs, and was our (admittedly bad) return guy last year. That's good value in the fifth round.
Kerry Meier, WR, 5th round, Atlanta Falcons - well, I'm sorry to say it, but he was only cut 5 days ago, and that technically makes him qualify. Has played in 12 games in 2011, but is a ghost on the statsheet. But he's probably da future.
Shann Schillinger, S, 6th round, Atlanta Falcons - good special teamer, albeit that's all he'll probably ever be. Has played in 31 games as a Falcon. Rounds out the 2nd worst late-round draft of TD's career, the first being 2008.

In 2011
Jacquizz Rodgers, RB, 5th round, Atlanta Falcons - ...does he really need an introduction? Fan favorite and one of my personal favorites, to the point where I actually made a highlight video of his on Youtube, where it has in 3 months accrued 22K+ views and 115 likes with no dislikes. That's right, even Saints fans can't downvote him. Has played in all 32 games as a Falcon with almost 1200 total yards, not counting yards from scrimmage as our kick returner. People wanted him over Turner as a starter, and with Jackson, people are confident his numbers will go up even further. 4 TDs in his career and a straight beast in the clutch - something numbers can't quite measure.
Matt Bosher, P, 6th round, Atlanta Falcons - someone who was once an inside joke has turned into a pretty freaking good punter, and apparently someone the staff sees as having potential as a kicker as well. His leg started shaky, but it's a lot easier to be confident in him now. Obviously a starter every game he's played, and handles kickoff duties as well. What I like most? He makes ST tackles.
Andrew Jackson, OG, 7th round, Buffalo Bills - sadly, that's where his resume ends. Hasn't really done much yet, but he's still on a roster.
Cliff Matthews, DE, 7th round, Atlanta Falcons - has failed to impress so far, though he's been involved in 10 games. He was in the rotation more this year, but I can't say I love him.

In 2012
Bradie Ewing, FB, 5th round, Atlanta Falcons - injured last year, but I like him a lot. Reminds me of Kuhn. Option as a receiver as well as a blocker, and expected to start this year.
Jonathan Massequoi, DE, 5th round, Atlanta Falcons - a joke he was even available here, if you ask me. He was a monster in 2010 and was forced into a role he didn't fit for 2011, yet still played well enough to earn 3rd round grades from Mayock and most other draft experts. I still have confidence he might eventually start, and until then, he's rotational depth I can feel very comfortable with. 8 games played so far as a Falcon.
Charles Mitchell, S, 6th round, Atlanta Falcons - played in 10 games last year as a good ST player and a pretty smooth looking safety. Freakish athlete who could have starting potential if not behind the great safeties we already have. And we add to that this year...loving it.
Travian Robertson, DT, 7th round, Atlanta Falcons - played in 7 games last year, starting none of them, but impressing people enough on these boards for us to declare him an eventual starter. Funnily enough, I'm tempted to agree. His tape doesn't agree with the fact that he slid to the 7th. Steal, and someone we'll see a lot more of this year.



And now, in 2013, we add four new players. Stansly Maponga, Kemal Ishmael, Zeke Motta, and Sean Renfree. So much depth in this draft - if it was the 2012 draft, Maponga would be a second round pick. Motta with a better 40 is a 3rd round pick, even in this draft. Renfree is mad underrated. And Ishmael, while not getting much love here, is possibly even better than Motta - a freak athlete with a nose for the ball that stood out in UCF games a lot. Really, watch him. Watch all of these guys.

I personally see this draft as being deeper than the 2009 draft - and in the 2009 draft, three of the guys became starters, with one still on a team as depth. Four years from now, could we be looking at Renfree, Maponga, Ishmael, and Motta, talking about them as starters? Wouldn't even surprise me at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:47 am 
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Pudge Wrote
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Is Ryan great? Depends on what your definition of great is?

Is greatness = successfully leading your team to the Super Bowl? If so, then most QBs aren't great for the majority of their careers.

Is greatness= capable of leading your team to the Super Bowl? Then I think Ryan is great. The Falcons didn't go, but Ryan did about all he could reasonably do to get them there.

Is greatness being on par with some HOF quarterbacks? Then I think Ryan passes there. Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Kurt Warner, I think Ryan is as good if not better than all those guys.

Is greatness being elite? i.e. being arguably the best at your position? If so, then I would agree Ryan isn't great.


Well this lets me answer better... Great to me means something you don't see every day!! Crap Warren Moon may be in the Hall Of Fame (I didn't even know this but Moon was not great!! )

Yes its more of being on par with Hall Of Fame Qbs IMO, OR the likes of Green Bay's Qb, if he continues as is, Or the run the Patroits Qb Brady, its not a tangible number for me, its more you know it when you see it.

No, The Ryan post season is just irritating; because I think every post season game he's played he threw crucial interceptions. I'm not saying Ryan couldn't become great I'm just saying he's not near that yet. Most Qbs don't really set their standard till after 5 years and its those who hate the Julio trade, and love Ryan I don't get...

If Ryan becomes great it will be Julio pushing him just like Ryan is now throwing a better longer pass; that Ryan had to develop or Julio would show that Ryan couldn't hack it.

Some Qbs win in the clutch like Joe Montana, and others. Some like Tony Romo seem great; but they always seem to have some folly. If Ryan's trend continues he'll be more like Romo.

To be great you must execute, but you also can't consistently make big turnovers in huge games in Post Season. I understand when I don't have concrete measurements;
my opinion on greatness can always be debated; but it has nothing to do with being perfect; Ryan is a long ways from perfect......

Yes 5 turnovers is too many..... All of his other post season games he had too many too. Turnovers is as you know what loses games, especially the bone headed ones where the snap hits you in the hands and you kick it away...... The great ones makes mistakes; but not stupid mistakes year in and year out in post season.

A QB can make a lot of mistakes and their teammates bail them out; or make great catches. Its the obvious mistakes and lack of great games in post season that separates good from great!! I think very few would call Matt Ryan great!!

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:14 am 
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Cyril wrote:
Pudge Wrote
Quote:
Is Ryan great? Depends on what your definition of great is?

Is greatness = successfully leading your team to the Super Bowl? If so, then most QBs aren't great for the majority of their careers.

Is greatness= capable of leading your team to the Super Bowl? Then I think Ryan is great. The Falcons didn't go, but Ryan did about all he could reasonably do to get them there.

Is greatness being on par with some HOF quarterbacks? Then I think Ryan passes there. Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Kurt Warner, I think Ryan is as good if not better than all those guys.

Is greatness being elite? i.e. being arguably the best at your position? If so, then I would agree Ryan isn't great.


Well this lets me answer better... Great to me means something you don't see every day!! Crap Warren Moon may be in the Hall Of Fame (I didn't even know this but Moon was not great!! )

Yes its more of being on par with Hall Of Fame Qbs IMO, OR the likes of Green Bay's Qb, if he continues as is, Or the run the Patroits Qb Brady, its not a tangible number for me, its more you know it when you see it.

No, The Ryan post season is just irritating; because I think every post season game he's played he threw crucial interceptions. I'm not saying Ryan couldn't become great I'm just saying he's not near that yet. Most Qbs don't really set their standard till after 5 years and its those who hate the Julio trade, and love Ryan I don't get...

If Ryan becomes great it will be Julio pushing him just like Ryan is now throwing a better longer pass; that Ryan had to develop or Julio would show that Ryan couldn't hack it.

Some Qbs win in the clutch like Joe Montana, and others. Some like Tony Romo seem great; but they always seem to have some folly. If Ryan's trend continues he'll be more like Romo.

To be great you must execute, but you also can't consistently make big turnovers in huge games in Post Season. I understand when I don't have concrete measurements;
my opinion on greatness can always be debated; but it has nothing to do with being perfect; Ryan is a long ways from perfect......

Yes 5 turnovers is too many..... All of his other post season games he had too many too. Turnovers is as you know what loses games, especially the bone headed ones where the snap hits you in the hands and you kick it away...... The great ones makes mistakes; but not stupid mistakes year in and year out in post season.

A QB can make a lot of mistakes and their teammates bail them out; or make great catches. Its the obvious mistakes and lack of great games in post season that separates good from great!! I think very few would call Matt Ryan great!!



I think this case could be made about Ryan up until THIS year. I don't think people appreciate just how good his playoff performances were. He had 3 TDs and nearly 300 yards in the FIRST HALF against San Francisco. That shows you he can ball out on the biggest stage...he just has to keep it up.

His only real mistake in that game was a boneheaded/fluke dropped snap. It was painful. It may have cost the game, but his near perfect play against a great D was what had the game tight. The INT was due to Roddy falling...that was not even a bad play.

Against Seattle Ryan wasn't as dominating, but was very good. I guess I just get tired of judging QBs out of context. The Ryan pick by Earl Thomas was the EXACT SAME PASS thrown by Flacco multiple times in the playoffs. The difference was better safety play. That's not to say Ryan didn't make a mistake (though it was a beautiful defensive pick play by Seattle, with the corner slowing in front of the WR so the safety has an easy catch over the top) but that that pass was made by many QBs throughout the playoffs, and is very rarely intercepted. I thought it was a dumb throw given game conditions (up in the 2nd half) but that's what being aggressive is. I actually thought the 2nd half of the Seattle game was the only time we should have been playing Smitty Ball in the playoffs...but I think Smith had it beaten into him so much to be aggressive, that he didn't know when it was actually time to slow it down (I digress).

Ryan wasn't perfect this offseason, but he showed he can look better than pretty much any QB in the league for long stretches, in the brightest light. That's what I've been waiting to see from him and did. He made some mistakes, but showed he isn't just a ho hum player who can never get you there. If he can string a few postseasons together like this one, and just make one or two fewer mistakes, we'll be in the Super Bowl. I'm much more concerned about many other aspects (OL, 3rd/4th WR--3rd being a starter, DL, etc.)

Is Ryan great? I don't know, and don't really care. This postseason, he showed that not only can you win with him, but he can be the catalyst for that. That's all I ask for out of any player.


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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:13 am 
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Cyril wrote:
If Ryan becomes great it will be Julio pushing him just like Ryan is now throwing a better longer pass; that Ryan had to develop or Julio would show that Ryan couldn't hack it.

Julio Jones isn't what made Ryan so much better last year. Having an offensive coordinator that wasn't a buffoon is what made Ryan better. Mularkey was holding Ryan back. Mularkey had White, Jones, and Gonzales, and wasn't able to score a single point against the Giants. On top of that, Mularkey had Turner in his prime, and never really bothered to take advantage of that with a vertical play action game. It wasn't that Ryan couldn't do it, it was that Mularkey wasn't asking him to. Perhaps a lot of that is on Smith as well. In any case, most of your dislike of Ryan is based on his years with Mularkey as his OC. Mularkey sucked. I realize that you thought that I was nuts when I was saying that he was holding Ryan back, but look at the difference with and without Mularkey.


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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:27 am 
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RobertAP wrote:
Cyril wrote:
If Ryan becomes great it will be Julio pushing him just like Ryan is now throwing a better longer pass; that Ryan had to develop or Julio would show that Ryan couldn't hack it.

Julio Jones isn't what made Ryan so much better last year. Having an offensive coordinator that wasn't a buffoon is what made Ryan better. Mularkey was holding Ryan back. Mularkey had White, Jones, and Gonzales, and wasn't able to score a single point against the Giants. On top of that, Mularkey had Turner in his prime, and never really bothered to take advantage of that with a vertical play action game. It wasn't that Ryan couldn't do it, it was that Mularkey wasn't asking him to. Perhaps a lot of that is on Smith as well. In any case, most of your dislike of Ryan is based on his years with Mularkey as his OC. Mularkey sucked. I realize that you thought that I was nuts when I was saying that he was holding Ryan back, but look at the difference with and without Mularkey.

:clap:

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:54 am 
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You guys can have Rich McKay back at GM and watch this team get flow into the side of Stone Mountain and quickly go back to being irrelevant to the NFL and become a candidate to move to LA if you want.

Dimitroff isn't perfect but he's a damn sight better than anything else this organization has had for years... Decades! It's with the personnel decisions of Dimitroff and the coaching of Smith that Atlanta is even thinking about playoffs or the Super Bowl.

I don't agree with everything Dimitroff has done but at the end of the day I believe he is an above average GM. At least he has the gravitas to take some chances and not run this team like a scared boy hoping not to get axed.

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:04 pm 
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Cyril wrote:
I think this case could be made about Ryan up until THIS year. I don't think people appreciate just how good his playoff performances were. He had 3 TDs and nearly 300 yards in the FIRST HALF against San Francisco. That shows you he can ball out on the biggest stage...he just has to keep it up.

I agree 110% with this statement. One of my major points of contention with Cyril is that he seems unable or unwilling to separate Ryan's performance in 2012 from Ryan's performances in 2008-11.

And when you simplify it to say that it's a trend that Ryan turns it over int he playoffs because he has is not looking at the big picture as well as the fact that I don't think your perception of what should be the case is what actually is the case.

Just look at Joe Montana's playoff career logs, between 1981 and 1987 in 11 playoff games, his TD-INT ratio was 17:15, yet the 49ers won 2 Super Bowls in that time span.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... elog/post/

If not turning the ball over in January is a defining aspect of greatness, then Tom Brady hasn't been a great QB since 2004.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... elog/post/

Call me a Matt Ryan apologist or whatever, but I really don't think the issue is with Matt Ryan, nor has it ever been. I think the issue has been with the talent around him. I looked it up, and you don't find very many playoff teams that couldn't run the ball like us last year, and even fewer Super Bowl teams, but if there were three it was the 2002 Raiders, 2008 Cardinals, and 2009 Colts. Those were the only SB teams that had less 100-yard rushing games than the Falcons did in 2012. All of those teams had 1 thing in common: they were very good passing teams (all ranked 6th or higher in Net YPA)

But you can throw the Raiders out, because they didn't run the ball well not because they couldn't (ranked 13th in YPC that year), but they also had a very good defense that was 12th vs. the run (by YPC) and 4th vs the pass (by Net YPA).

Compare that to the Cardinals:

Rushing Offense - 31st
Pass Defense - 24th
Rush Defense - 11th

Colts:

Rush Offense: 30th
Pass Defense: 4th
Rush Defense: 19th

Falcons:

Rush Offense: 29th
Pass Defense: 22nd
Rush Defense: 29th

I hate to say it but if the Falcons had managed to beat the 49ers, we probably would have went down in history as one of the worst teams OVERALL to play in a Super Bowl. And that's not because of Matt Ryan's lacking greatness.

Look, this team has to get a better supporting cast around Ryan going forward. I think they made a dent with this draft class, and I hope they make further dents with future ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:33 pm 
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Robert AP WROTE
Quote:
In any case, most of your dislike of Ryan is based on his years with Mularkey as his OC. Mularkey sucked. I realize that you thought that I was nuts when I was saying that he was holding Ryan back, but look at the difference with and without Mularkey.


First of all I don't dislike Ryan. I just don't think he's great!! Look at the difference with
a non rookie Julio. Mularkey may have been holding Ryan back his last year but you don't seem to remember when Ryan was a raw rookie and in my heart I believe Mularkey
did everything possible to keep Ryan from getting killed against other teams.....Mularkey was great for Ryan, I doubt you've seen many good Qbs allowed to get killed because it doesn't happen as often today or in the last ten years..

That's what we've done with all other drafted Qbs, Bart, Miller, they'd had knee surgery's before their 5th year. When trading for Chandler we let him get killed too. Our lines today look like a bunch of studs compared to when Bart was sacked about 50+year after year.....

But if you don't think Julio will make Ryan a superstar Qb then it wasn't going to happen. Yes its usually the other way around; the Qb makes the receiver ; but now Ryan can actually look for 3 receivers then dump off to a running back.....I bet Ryan is working again on his arm strength and he didn't know it was a problem till we got Julio.

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 Post subject: Re: Superbowl or bust it is
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:52 pm 
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OK PUDGE I WILL----YOU MATT RYAN APOLOGIST!! However I am too!! (:

I stick up for him every chance I can except he's not near great!! NOT YET!!

HE'S THE BEST QB THE FALCONS have ever had; but he's not great yet.....

One other thing for Robert, You can blame Mularkey but why have Ryan throw more interceptions; get more sacks; and have less experience then your product won't be as good. You can't overstate how important it is to not put to much on a rookie's plate...
or even second year.......

Ryan was ready for a new O-Coordinator based on his getting better with experience....
Its forgotten how on this board many thought the new O-Coordinator would just be a token for Mike Smith to keep playing Mularkey ball. Some need to fess up (:

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