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 Post subject: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:27 pm 
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http://www.nfl.com/videos/atlanta-falco ... -Matt-Ryan


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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:17 pm 
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I'm pretty fired up that Matt, on a 1-4 squad, still has that much desire in him. There is no quit in this guy, and his numbers this year have been stupid good for what he's had to deal with. :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:29 pm 
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And people here doubted his intangibles until the Falcons beat the Seahawks. :so:

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:33 am 
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Pudge wrote:
And people here doubted his intangibles until the Falcons beat the Seahawks. :so:

I don't think there is much evidence backing that claim, Pudge, as far as something as recent as that game. There were doubters as to the wisdom of drafting him--and I was one--but I think most of that doubt--especially here--had evaporated long before last year's playoffs.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:00 pm 
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Being a, "game is won in the trenches," guy, I was on the Dorsey bandwagon. However, once I got to see Ryan play, I was on board with him pretty quickly. There are a large number of people who don't like Ryan, however. Considering I was anti-Vick, I suppose I can empathize with them. However, I recognize Matt Ryan as a great NFL QB. I recognize Vick as a great runner. In my book, you want a great QB playing QB. It's hard to win consistently with a great runner at QB.


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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:42 pm 
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Was my thinking as well and perhaps it was erroneous in the modern NFL. We were in such a messed up state and had tried to build a team around one player--Vick--to disasterous results. My thought was to burn the team to the ground and--for once--build it up right from the bottom up. I think that may actually be what they did except my thought was the lines were the bottom line and I think in the present league that a franchise QB is. without it you have little. I was wondering, is Dorsey still on KC and how is he doing? Also, didn't Dunta go there? How is he doing?

There some things I don't like about Matt mainly regarding raw athleticism but I love his heart and steely resolve. He has become more of a gunslinger in the last couple of years and he is pretty darn tough and durable. Above all else he strikes you as superb from the neck up in any number of ways. A class act as well off the field.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:25 pm 
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backnblack wrote:
Pudge wrote:
And people here doubted his intangibles until the Falcons beat the Seahawks. :so:

I don't think there is much evidence backing that claim, Pudge, as far as something as recent as that game.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16747

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16586&start=50

Well let's just say there were plenty of people questioning it still after the 2011 Giants Fiasco, and I don't think that until that win vs. SEA was it definitively put to bed.

backnblack wrote:
I was wondering, is Dorsey still on KC and how is he doing?

Dorsey is starting for the 49ers at NT and playing well. Even as a 2-down player for the 49ers, he's already matched his career high in sacks with 2 through 7 games this year.

backnblack wrote:
Also, didn't Dunta go there? How is he doing?

Dunta started the season as the Chiefs nickel/slot corner, but his poor play has already led to him being benched this year. Rookie 7th round pick Marcus Cooper is now the team's nickel cornerback. Brandon Flowers is playing in the slot currently. :doh:

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:10 pm 
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I read thru that whole first thread, Pudge, and don't see what you seem to. All anyone was saying was to take a wait and see approach which the org did. I also contend that he may be the third best QB in the division...big may. i have a lot of faith that Cam is going to really get it together.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am 
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backnblack wrote:
I read thru that whole first thread, Pudge, and don't see what you seem to. All anyone was saying was to take a wait and see approach which the org did. I also contend that he may be the third best QB in the division...big may. i have a lot of faith that Cam is going to really get it together.

Well IMO, the reluctance to pay Ryan was a sign that people still had faint lingering doubts about him. I never really bought the "injury risk" espoused in that thread. As we know now that they've paid him, he's still an injury risk. His playing the past season didn't make him any less prone to injury.

When you look back to "career-changing" injuries to players like Kurt Warner, Carson Palmer, and Daunte Culpepper, the reality is none of those teams were able to upgrade their QB situations afterwards. Bulger basically had 1 good season in STL (2003) and the rest of his time there he was an injury-prone .500 QB. Andy Dalton is not a better player than Palmer, he just plays on a much better team than Palmer. And the Vikings have struggled at the QB position since Culpepper's injury 8 years with Tarvaris Jackson, Brad Johnson, Gus Frerotte, and Christian Ponder helming the spot, besides the 1 good season Brett Favre had it. Besides that 1 year with Favre (2009), they've consistently been a below average offense that has never rated higher than the 19th best passing attack in the league.

The point I'm making is that in this hypothetical situation where Ryan suffers a career-threatening/changing injury, the issue wouldn't have been the money we paid him, it would have been the injury itself. Because recent history tells us if the injury is enough to make Ryan a far less effective QB, the likelihood that the Falcons would stumble upon someone better is very low.

By the end of 2011, Matt Ryan had proven without a doubt that he was a franchise QB, and thus deserved a contract extension. And the Falcons could have saved themselves several million in guaranteed money had they paid him then. As I said then, I believed the Falcons could have gotten Ryan for under $45 million guaranteed. They wound up giving him $59 million, because as I said then, several other franchise QBs would sign deals that would set the market for Ryan.

Whether people wish to admit it or not, I still believe there was a sizable group of people on this forum and in this fan base that needed to see Matt Ryan win a playoff game before they were fully sold on him.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:38 pm 
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There may some truth to that but not much here especially that I can tell. I don't really see the wisdom in paying people way in advance but I suppose there is some. Matt is too smart to let his dog fighting ring get discovered.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:39 am 
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Pudge wrote:
backnblack wrote:
Whether people wish to admit it or not, I still believe there was a sizable group of people on this forum and in this fan base that needed to see Matt Ryan win a playoff game before they were fully sold on him.



who would be ashamed to admit that? I wear that as a badge of honor. After his play in the GIant Fiasco(tm), Matt Ryan needed to show me he could get it done. Same with Smith...

I needed him to show me he could be 'clutch'. He didt that last season.. It's sucks that he fumbled the snap in the last playoff game, but you didn't hear me bitching about that. Mistakes happen. Style of play and passion don't. Matt Ryan gave up in the GIant Fiasco(tm) and he played like a pussy. He did not have the 'fire'. Last season, at home, in the first playoff game he was all over the sidelines, grabbing guys and getting in thier faces. He was in it to win it. That's what I needed to see before I was truly 'sold' on him. I think you underestimate the overall effect that the GIant Fiasco(tm) had on the fan base.

And that's another big reason that some people ( and I may have been one of them, I dont recall but Im sure you will find a post killing me ) weren't 'sold' on locking him up contract wise in early 2012...Because the taste of that loss was still fresh. I could be wrong, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:27 am 
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Oh, you were definitely one of them fun gus. And I do understand the effect of the Giant Fiasco on your psyche and that of others. But as I said in those threads I linked to above (particularly the 2nd one), what I kept trying to explain is that Ryan's poor performance in that Giants game was partially (not completely, but partially) due to the coaching staff, not giving him the tools to succeed. The Falcons game plan in that game was to run the ball with Michael Turner, a declining RB. Besides that huge game in Week 17 where the Falcons played a quitting Bucs team, the Falcons hadn't rushed for over 100 yards since Week 11. It should also be noted that Julio Jones had really started to come alive down the stretch with very strong performances in Weeks 15 and 17.

And we know how it all went in that Giants game. Michael Turner was 0 for 5 on 1st down runs in that game. The Falcons routinely couldn't get an inch on short-yardage runs. The Falcons had a losing game plan.

And the argument we had then was that it seemed that you and others were arguing that it didn't matter that the Falcons had a losing game plan, a QB should be able to elevate his play regardless of the game plan put forth by the coaches. And I said BS.

Now fast forward to 2012, and we go through a year where the games are typically put on the shoulders of Matt Ryan. The Falcons build their offense around him, play a bunch of no-huddle and put the ball in his hands. They predominantly abandon the run for the most part, and give Ryan the tools and methods to succeed. They play a West Coast team at home, and thus get the benefit of a sluggish start. They get an early turnover, turn that into 7 points, and also got 3 big plays to set up 10 more points, 2 of which were runs by Quizz and Turner, and the bomb to Roddy. Then in the 3rd quarter, they put the ball into Ryan's hands on their lone possession, and Ryan goes 8 for 10 for 71 yards and its capped off with our beloved Snelling shovel pass. That was the defining drive of that game (although most probably believe it was the final one that set up Matt Bryant's FG). That couldn't have happened the year for reasons I stated above thanks to the coaching.

The analogy is that it's easier to be confident you can get your crew to the destination, when you're given the keys to the car.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:55 am 
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Pudge wrote:
And the argument we had then was that it seemed that you and others were arguing that it didn't matter that the Falcons had a losing game plan, a QB should be able to elevate his play regardless of the game plan put forth by the coaches. And I said BS..



No, old friend, not going to let you get away with this one :wink:

There is a difference between 'elevate'....and ''QUIT'. Matt Ryan quit in that game. THAT is what bothered me more then a bad 'gameplan'. You can make the argument that the reason Matt Ryan 'quit' in the Giant Fiasco(tm) is due to a bad gameplan, but I am not buying into it at all. Matt Ryan most likely had a 'bad gameplan' in the previous two playoff losses, but he didn't quit. And last season, he didn't quit either, so Im thinking it had to be something else.

sorry, you cant get your crew to the destination by getting out of the bus and walking. or rather, just sitting by the side of the road. because that is what went down in New York that year, and why TD and Smitty had to have a little media beatdown after the loss, because even Blank could see Ryan 'giving up' and had enough of that sh*t, too. :snooty:

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:12 pm 
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I disagree. If Matt Ryan got off the metaphorical bus, and sat down by the side of the road, it was because the bus was already broken down.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:53 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
I disagree. If Matt Ryan got off the metaphorical bus, and sat down by the side of the road, it was because the bus was already broken down.


It wasn't broke when the trip started. When it broke down, did Matt Ryan crack the hood? Did he try something different? No he sat by the road, and he pouted.

Unlike this season, where when the thing was breaking down, he was on fire and doing everything he could to win, which he did.

Look, you have the ability to admit when he plays like dogshit. IMO, you need to quit making excuses for his play in the Giant Fiasco(tm). Look at it for what it was, an look at how far weve come from then. It wasnt losing Turner or Koetter that really turned this around, it was Matt Ryan saying 'not in my house, today'. Period. :snooty:

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:13 pm 
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fun gus wrote:
It wasn't broke when the trip started.

I think you and I have vastly different memories of the 2011 season.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:26 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
fun gus wrote:
It wasn't broke when the trip started.

I think you and I have vastly different memories of the 2011 season.


maybe. I think we have vastly different memories of the Giant Fiasco(tm), which is really what I was referring to. I seem to recall after the Saints National Beatdown of 2011, our coordinators had already quit. They had jobs on the plane ride home. That stuff runs down to the players, not least of which was Mr Ryan. If you want to make the argument that this kind of stuff 'broke the engine;, that is reasonable. But 'sh*tty Turner and playcalling' is a lame excuse for what I witnessed that day..as you say, it's # 4 or 5 problem. The team dialing out the coach, the coordinators quitting, the QB being unable to rally the troops, and pussing out , mean more to me then 'Mularkey is an idiot'.

I :ninja:

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:02 pm 
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It's becoming clear to me that we have a fundamental disagreement on the importance of how game plans factor into a team's success on any given Sunday. I truly believe that the coaching staff's plan of action in that game, was to run the ball with Turner and challenge the OL to block and that was how they were going to handle the Giants fearsome pass rush. Because the Falcons knew that their OL couldn't hang with the likes of Osi, Tuck, and JPP if we got into a straight drop back pass attack. But I think the problem was that when that plan of action failed, they had nothing else in the well to turn to. Roddy White got absolutely shut down by Corey Webster that game, so much so that Roddy resorted to fighting Webster for no apparent reason besides being absolutely frustrated at the end of the game because Roddy dropped 3 passes. Is Ryan responsible for making Roddy get his head out of his ass? It would appear that you believe so, and I don't.

Another issue was that throughout the course of that season, and that game in particular, the Falcons did not do a great job maximizing Julio Jones' skill set. It's sort of similar to Tavon Austin in St. Louis now. Is that also Ryan's fault too?

Ryan played like a bitch. He was late on throws, looked tentative, and played scared. I have admitted this multiple times. But unlike you, I don't think that is independent of the game plan on that day and how the Falcons used Ryan throughout 2011 and the years before. The Falcons largely ask Ryan to manage a football, keep it close, and then do his thing in the 4th quarter. They never really put the ball in his hands over the course of his first four seasons (outside the 2010 Ravens game). The M.O. of the Mularkey-led Falcons offenses was trying to maintain balance in the 1st quarter of games, and then turning to Ryan and the no-huddle in the 2nd quarter and it usually led to scoring drives at the end of that quarter.

I don't believe this is the best environment to breed confidence in a QB when they are forced to turn the keys over to the QB, especially in a situation where they know the OL is a liability and you're #1 WR is playing like crap.

I don't think it's a coincidence that in 2011, the Giants put the games in Eli's hands from the get-go, and then when it came to the playoffs, he was able to elevate his play because he had spent 16 weeks prior throwing the Giants to wins. I think Kurt Warner did the same in 2008. The Giants threw the ball 58% of the time in the 1st quarter, meanwhile the Falcons threw it just 49% of the time in the 1st quarter.

So when that moment comes and the pressure is mounted, Eli has no problem taking it on because he's been doing it for 4 months. Matt Ryan hasn't done it in 4 years.

And then suddenly in 2012, the Falcons shift and they start throwing the ball from the get-go, and are throwing the ball 58% of the time in the 1st quarter. And guess what happens in January? Matt Ryan puts forth his best effort and the Falcons shockingly gash 2 of the best pass defenses in the league in the playoffs. Coincidence? I don't believe so.

I'm not trying to make an excuse for Ryan's poor play vs. the Giants. But these other factors (such as coaching and the game plan) do factor into it, and it's clear I think it factors in way more than you do.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:03 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
Ryan played like a bitch. He was late on throws, looked tentative, and played scared. I have admitted this multiple times. But unlike you, I don't think that is independent of the game plan on that day and how the Falcons used Ryan throughout 2011 and the years before. The Falcons largely ask Ryan to manage a football, keep it close, and then do his thing in the 4th quarter. They never really put the ball in his hands over the course of his first four seasons (outside the 2010 Ravens game). The M.O. of the Mularkey-led Falcons offenses was trying to maintain balance in the 1st quarter of games, and then turning to Ryan and the no-huddle in the 2nd quarter and it usually led to scoring drives at the end of that quarter.

I don't believe this is the best environment to breed confidence in a QB when they are forced to turn the keys over to the QB, especially in a situation where they know the OL is a liability and you're #1 WR is playing like crap..



okay, well if your going to post that, then I feel you have to come clean and admit RAP was right about Mularkey 'holding' Ryan back, which is a case you made numerous times. Cannot have it both ways :snooty:

I feel you are 'revisiting' history, which is okay, it is your site. But cognitive dissonance aside, you still overlook the Saints game. Our coordinators punched out. They started looking for new jobs that Friday. You have yet to admit that not only was this a 'possibility', but it was , in fact true. It was brought out post hoc by numerous media guys, which lead to the 'Grimes' problem. So you still want to make excuses for the entire org, from GM on down. It trickles down.

Certain things, in my mind are inexcusable. Obviously, you feel differently, and that is okay. I am not buyig it, though.

no worries 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:00 pm 
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I've agreed with RobertAP that Mularkey held Ryan back starting in 2011. Rob has the perspective that it began in 2009. We differ on this issue mainly because I don't believe it was until 2010 that Ryan had shown the skill set to carry the offense, with his play vs. the Ravens that year and his play in the 4th quarter. And I don't think you can be mad at Mualrkey for 2010, because the Falcons didn't have the ideal talent to make a "Ryan-centric" offense. They did of course have those pieces in 2011 with the acquisition of Julio, and thus all that debate about the questionable identity back then. My stance on that issue has been very consistent over the past 2 years.

I'm not sure I understand your point about the Saints game. If the coordinators had "punched out" by the time we played the Giants, then why are you vilifying Ryan so much? If your point is that the whole org. was screwed up by the time we reached that cold day , then I agree with you, thus again why is Ryan singled out in the manner that he has to "prove himself?"

Yeah I get he's the QB and due greater scrutiny, but I still contend that Ryan was unfairly expected to rise above the "mess" that surrounded him, which trust me doesn't happen. see Joe Flacco, Cam Cameron, and Jim Caldwell.

And frankly in retrospect, if we had pursued a deal then with Ryan, it likely would've been similar to what Matt Stafford signed this past summer. Ryan had by then proven way more deserving of a big contract than Stafford.

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 Post subject: Re: Matt Ryan Mic'd Up
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:53 am 
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Pudge wrote:
I've agreed with RobertAP that Mularkey held Ryan back starting in 2011. Rob has the perspective that it began in 2009. We differ on this issue mainly because I don't believe it was until 2010 that Ryan had shown the skill set to carry the offense, with his play vs. the Ravens that year and his play in the 4th quarter. And I don't think you can be mad at Mualrkey for 2010, because the Falcons didn't have the ideal talent to make a "Ryan-centric" offense. They did of course have those pieces in 2011 with the acquisition of Julio, and thus all that debate about the questionable identity back then. My stance on that issue has been very consistent over the past 2 years.

My feeling is that this is a chicken or the egg scenario. Ryan wasn't ready, or Mularkey held Ryan back. Given Mularkey's history, I'm going with Mularkey held Ryan back. If Mularkey had been putting Ryan into a position to run the offense, I believe that we would have seen Ryan blossom a bit sooner. It's also quite possible that Mularkey was afraid of getting Ryan killed because our offensive line has been patched together every year. But again, consider Mularkey's history... It points to him holding Ryan back because that's who Mularkey is.


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