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 Post subject: Clowney
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:49 pm 
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http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foo ... -up-for-me
So if the Falcons decide he's the guy, what do you think it would take to trade up to the first or second pick?
First pick - this years top two and next years first
Second pick this years first and third and next years first

I don't mind givingp next years first cause I think we will be in the late first. I don't want to give up our second this year if possible though.

What do you think it would cost?


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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:49 pm 
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Too much... We are getting more and more wholes each year, we need to start trading down not up. Roddy may be done already and if he's not we have 1 maybe 2 solid more years with us, then what are we left with for weapons? No RB, No TE, and only 1 WR... We need a few 1st and 2nd round pics to fill these holes. We don't want to end up like Detroit with a couple of great players, playing next to guys who shouldn't even be starting, it just doesn't work.

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:35 pm 
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Agree w/ DW: If your system cannot be successful without Clowney, your system sucks.

The Julio trade is still a good trade when it was made, but I'd argue against moving again, especially considering the failure of the last few drafts and on the fa/re-signing front as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:22 pm 
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I like Clowney but agree. I know it sounds crazy but I want to pick up a FA on both lines like a Michael Johnson or Greg Hardy and a good OL. Then I'd like to draft Sammy Watkins to replace White in a couple years and to team up with him till then. Or trade down and draft Mike Evans. I think there are good FAs we can get to help with the lines so getting another explosive WR to go with Julio and Roddy for now would be good.

Anyway we have a ton of possibilities and it should be interesting. Clowney would be great. Robinson or Matthews would be great. Mack wouldn't be bad. Can't wait for FA to help answer some questions.


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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:52 pm 
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The free agency period for Atlanta should resolve most major questions heading into the draft as to who Atlanta goes for. If Atlanta manages to sign someone like Hardy then I don't think they draft DE but OT instead. If Atlanta signs someone like Johnson I still think they make a play for Clowney or Mack.

Right now I don't expect them to make any picks in the secondary corner or safety (I expect Atlanta to sign a veteran safety and cut DeCoud).

I do think Atlanta probably trades up and goes after Clowney or Mack at this point. They've already stated they aren't going to make a major investment in free agency which eliminates Hardy and Johnson from that equation if true. The only thing I don't see them doing in the draft (for better or worse) is trade down in the 1st round.

I would expect a 2nd and/or 3rd round pick to be invested into Tackle and Tight End with the latter part of the draft focusing on depth for DT, WR, HB, and possible OG/C.

I think Atlanta needs quality veterans that don't break the bank on the offensive line. I was originally of the opinion that OT was top priority in the draft but now I think adding 1 or 2 Average to Above Average veterans to the O-Line would be decidedly more beneficial while adding an elite pass rusher via the draft would be the biggest boost to the defense.

I'm still hoping some players fall through the cracks into the middle rounds 3-5 like ASJ or Sankey.

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:09 pm 
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If we have to give up a Top 75 pick for Clwoney, I would not pull the trigger. The Falcons should not be in the market to lose assets, they should be trying to gain assets. Now, if the Falcons are able to go out and sign some of the better FAs to fill some holes at DE, OG, DT, etc. then I might be more open to giving up this year's 2nd or 3rd, or next year's 2nd for Clowney.

A 1st round pick is an immediate no. Clowney is a great player, a once in a generation player. The last time we had a player like that his name was Julius Peppers, who went 2nd overall in the '02 draft. 9 picks later however, some guy by the name of Dwight Freeney who was a productive and but undersized edge rusher got picked up by the Colts. Freeney is a definite HOFer, while Peppers is a borderline guy.

If the options are to move up to get Clowney by giving up a 2nd or 3rd round pick or whatever versus staying at 6 and hoping that Khalil Mack, or Jake Matthews, or Greg Robinson is our Dwight Freneey, and I can use that 2nd, 3rd round picks on a RB, OG, WR, TE, DT, or S, all of which are needs for this team, then I choose option B.

If we want to package a bunch of Day 3 picks (Rds 4 thru 7) to move up to get Clowney, I'll be willing to pull the trigger since the impact players at those positions listed above are unlikely to be found in those rounds (outside RB & WR).

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:07 pm 
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Pudge wrote:
If we have to give up a Top 75 pick for Clwoney, I would not pull the trigger. The Falcons should not be in the market to lose assets, they should be trying to gain assets. Now, if the Falcons are able to go out and sign some of the better FAs to fill some holes at DE, OG, DT, etc. then I might be more open to giving up this year's 2nd or 3rd, or next year's 2nd for Clowney.


I generally agree and I'm not really campaigning for the Falcons to move up to get Clowney. I'd rather hangout at #6 and draft Mack or trade back to the middle half of the 1st round and accumulate some early to mid round picks.

It is probably a safe bet that Jacksonville takes Clowney with the 2nd pick (wouldn't be shocked to see Houston take him #1 and follow the Seahawk blueprint). In fact I somewhat expect that the QB draft class will fall out of the Top-5 across the board. With so many teams getting burned in recent years by top QB selections I think many teams are gun shy about this crop of QB's.

Worst case scenario is Clowney, Mack, and Robinson all being gone by the 6th pick which could happen... If that does trade back Dimitroff! Trade back!

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:05 pm 
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FYI, Jacksonville is picking 3rd not second. His 40 time today probably just guaranteed him a top 3 pick.

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:02 pm 
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Oops... None the less Clowney doesn't make it past JAX. Atlanta just didn't suck bad enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:50 pm 
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I saw this on another forum and after I read this, I must agree...( Im paraphrasing here)

Even if we were to trade up, I think in almost any form, its going to be a mistake. The reasoning is even though this guy has 'amazing Peppers-like skillz', our defensive front seven is so weak ONE PLAYER alone cannot fix it. The other thing is Clowney coming here to this pissy D may actually drag him down. Clowney needs to go to a team with a definite D mentality and some good vets on the team to 'push him'. A team like Baltimore for instance. He comes here and all we have to push him is Osi? Not a good idea. He will get here, start enjoying the big city life, and while his physical skills will make him 'good' he will not be 'great'. And we cannot afford to do a deal like this unless it's a sure-fire 'win'. And coming off another Julio injury season, that decision is looking more suspect which each passing year.

just my two cents 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:03 am 
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This is the wrong attitude to take in building a championship team referring to the post above. DEFENSE will be key in building a championship team and just because we have such a weak one at the moment doesn't mean we should just load up on offense. Look at Denver who scored more points than any team in history. They got totally shut down by the Seahawks in the Super Bowl. There is obvious risk in drafting Clowney but outside of Mack who can deliver a pass rush and become a force in the league in the draft. Sure there will probably be a jared Allen (someone drafted in the middle rounds who becomes a star) but if we can add a few off line free agents(especially guard) then building the defense through the draft would be a good idea. Who on defense do the Falcs have does anyone fear? How many starters on defense could start for the 49ers or Seahawks?

Clowney would also free up other defenders to rush the QB. Even if Clowney only gets 6-7 sacks BUT consistently puts pressure on the QB it would be worth it. I look at the Falcons with two views in mind to build the team.

If we can sign a vet guard then using the draft to build the defense I am all for it. We need help at all levels. Hopefully Pioli and the other new hire(name escapes me) can find some gems in the middle rounds. I am really sick of getting outmuscled on goal line stands and short yardage situations. Adding a big def tackle like Paul Soliali(sp) or Daniel Mcullers middle round would help the situation. We signed Peters but we need a big def tackle to stuff the run.

The other route is to sign a stop gap most likely in Jared Allen, a vet def tackle and then draft a Jake Mathews type with our no6. We could use our 2nd rounder for a guard.

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:58 am 
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thescout wrote:
This is the wrong attitude to take in building a championship team referring to the post above. DEFENSE will be key in building a championship team and just because we have such a weak one at the moment doesn't mean we should just load up on offense..



But, if we have to give up our first or second ( plus another pick from next year) pick to get one defensive player, that isn't 'loading up on defense', it's wasting the picks. And dont think for a minute that we can get Clowney with a 2nd and 3rd, if he has a good proday followed by his 40 time, my opinion is its highly unlikely that deal is going down. The best thing I have heard is we 'might' make a deal if we give up this years 2nd and 7th round pick and next years 2nd pick. Didn't TD give up 2 second round picks for Baker? IMO, this is also 'too much' for a guy with questionable work ethics...

I would be in the market to trade down, and be very active in FA. Which leads us to this question: where do you get better 'bang for the buck', OL or D? I would be okay taking an OL with our #6 pick if someone like Matthews is still there, or D if Mack is still there. But generally speaking, a top 10 OL can step in and make more of an immediate impact then a DE, because it usually takes a year for the game to 'slow down' for outside rushers.

If we give up our second and third or second from last year for Clowney: that kid better set the damn world on fire or Blank will ride TD's a$$ outta town on a rail. :whistle:

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:14 pm 
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I agree with Fun Gus. Clowney has some interesting question marks. Question marks that require a good foundation in order to deal with. We don't have that. We have a defensive train wreck, and if you bring a potentially, "lazy," player into the mix, that's just going to make things worse, not better. If we could pick him, and keep our other picks, it would be worth the risk. However, if we had to give up two first rounders and a 2nd rounder to get him, it would not.

Moving up to draft Clowney would pretty much guarantee that Atlanta would be no better than average for the next four years. It's a sure fire way to mediocrity. Even if Clowney turns out to be a pro-bowl player, we still have 3 other defensive linemen that need to be upgraded, an offensive line that's one of the worst in the league, and we just lost the best TE to ever play the game. We have lots of things to fix, and if we decide that we're going to trade away all of our picks for a few, "top prospects," every few years, we're going to have a lot of years like last year.


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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:27 pm 
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As suggested on Walterfootball.com the rate probably will be our 1st this yr and 2nd plus next year's 2nd. How long have we been investing in the offense? Defense with high picks? Did you watch the Super Bowl. Denver's offense got destroyed and couldn't move the ball. Clowney obviously as risk and is the safest pick but no draft pick comes without risk. How long have we searched for a def end? If you sign a vet free agent guard and draft a tackle in the 3rd round(this is a deep tackle draft) you would still help the off line and you get your def end. In a Nolan defense I'm not sure Clowney has as much value but if we do 4-3 alot he would be worth it. If Clowney and Mack are gone then off line probably is the pick. I'd choose to try and trade down and pick up another high pick then draft Lewan. If he is gone I think Donald would be a solid choice and we would have 2 2nd rounders. I do like Mathews alot and wouldn't lose any sleep over him at 6 but I think you have to look at the big picture and why you make defense or offense the 1st falcon pick.

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:21 pm 
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thescout wrote:
As suggested on Walterfootball.com the rate probably will be our 1st this yr and 2nd plus next year's 2nd. How long have we been investing in the offense? Defense with high picks? Did you watch the Super Bowl. Denver's offense got destroyed and couldn't move the ball. Clowney obviously as risk and is the safest pick but no draft pick comes without risk. How long have we searched for a def end?.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Se ... raft_picks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sa ... raft_picks

those defenses were not predicated on picking first round defensive picks, but as a mixture of getting relaible vets, grooming later round picks into reliable starters, and very rarely using thier #1 pick on a defensive skill set.

how about Denver?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_De ... raft_picks

they used thier last two first round picks on 2 defensive players, Von Miller and Sylvester Williams, and their defense shut down quicker then a Woody Allen childcare center! Williams didn't even play all 16 games last season. Von Miller only played 9 games. Both thier stats, put plainly, last year were not impressive.

so, yeah Scout, I saw the Superbowl :wink:

Which is why you dont break the bank for a DE. Even one with the 'upside' of Clowney.

Now, if he is there at #6, then by all means. But in no way should we be pulling another Julio trade with as many holes as we have.

If Clowney and Mack are both gone by 6 and we cant trade down, then I snag Matthews and get a vet DE in FA. The use the second pick for DT or another DE. But i sure as hell would not mortgage the farm for Clowney.

Too much, IMO. :whistle:

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:38 pm 
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If Clowney drops down to 4 then I would move up and get him. Interesting I was reviewing the top 10 defensive players this year in terms of sacks its about half not drafted in the 1st round. It realy all depends on if TD feels Clowney can be a star player.I'm not talking just pro bowler but all pro. How many JJ Watts are in the league? Very few players can take over a game and that is what Clowney would have to do. 70% of Clowney is probably going to be better than most def ends in the league.

Now we agree if the Falcons decide to go the free agent route and bring someone like Jared Allen it would be a stop gap but we could get good production teaming him with Osi and Biermann. I doubt they sign Bennett he'll cost to much given his age and production. The key is if the Falcons don't do anything in free agency at def end then you know something is up and they'll have to address it in the draft. I'd be happy with Mack but it looks like he is moving up draft boards.

If we do sign a Jared Allen then drafting Mathews isn't such a bad idea. Robinson most likely will be gone.

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:58 pm 
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thescout wrote:
70% of Clowney is probably going to be better than most def ends in the league.
.




:roll: :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:14 am 
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fun gus wrote:
thescout wrote:
70% of Clowney is probably going to be better than most def ends in the league.
.




:roll: :rofl:

:king: :king: :king: :king: Whose the defending mock draft champion Fun Gus. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:23 am 
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I hope 70% of Clowney is better than most DEs because I have a feeling that is about what you are going to get. Screw this guy. If he falls to us--which he won't--I guess we have to take him but I would feel better about us in general if we traded back and loaded up in this deep draft. Cool with either of the top tackles. Clowney will probably be a solid player but I'm not too big on guys you have to convince to want it.

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:16 am 
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thescout wrote:
fun gus wrote:
thescout wrote:
70% of Clowney is probably going to be better than most def ends in the league.
.




:roll: :rofl:

:king: :king: :king: :king: Whose the defending mock draft champion Fun Gus. :lol:



fair enough..But are you talking about most DE in the draft, or the league? because think about that for a minute.

a 70% rookie out of college with motivational issues is going to be better then most vets? I suppose it's possible, but that is a pretty bold statement. I think Clowney is not going to have the kinda year Peppers had his first year..in fact, i think he has a year like SuperMario's first year, where he only had something like 4 sacks because the game had not 'slowed down' for him yet. Also, Peppers went to Carolina, a team with a strong defense minded philosophy. We do not have that here.

I guess we will see 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:16 am 
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Let me clarify Fun Gus when Clowney playing at 70% (when he matures) will be better than most in the league.

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:39 am 
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thescout wrote:
Let me clarify Fun Gus when Clowney playing at 70% (when he matures) will be better than most in the league.



I would agree with that, with one caveat. I think he has to go to a team that can 'push him' to get to that 70%..There is another possibility that he goes to a team like the Falcons, and gets off to a slow start. Eventually his athleticism and skillset is going to make him an impact player. I dont think he would be a 'bust' in the mold of Aundrey Bruce or Vernon Ghoulston, but be a 'bust' in that we traded up for a JJ Watt and ended up with a Micheal Bennett. 'Good' but not 'great'. capiche? :so:

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:19 pm 
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I'm not as high on Clowney as I was during the season. I agree with others that the Falcons don't have the ideal environment (as of yet) to get the most out of him. I'll reiterate that if the team is active in getting good players in free agency to supplement Clowney, I will be less down on the move to go up and get him (which is the only way he winds up a Falcon).

But I do not agree that the team should be trading high picks for him. As fun gus states, building up a defense is about getting multiple good players. Seattle's defense is successful because they have multiple good players playing at a high level, and while they are the rare team that did so without using that many high picks, that is normally not the case.

Let's look at the Cardinals and Bengals. Let's look at the number of players on their defensive roster that at one point in time either before their final years in college or after their final years in college were considered Top 50 draft talents:

Arizona
DE John Abraham
CB Javier Arenas
DE Calais Campbell
CB Antoine Cason
LB Karlos Dansby
DT Darnell Dockett
S Rashad Johnson
CB Tyrann Mathieu
LB Kevin Minter
CB Patrick Peterson
LB Daryl Washington
DT Dan Williams

Cincinnati
DT Geno Atkins
LB Vontaze Burfict
DE Carlos Dunlap
CB Leon Hall
DE Margus Hunt
DE Michael Johnson
CB Adam Jones
CB Dre Kirkpatrick
LB Rey Maualuga
S Taylor Mays
S Reggie Nelson
CB Terence Newman
DT Devon Still

And that doesn't include a bunch of players/prospects that were pretty darn close:

LB Sam Acho (Cardinals)
LB Dontay Moch (Cardinals)
LB Alex Okafor (Cardinals)
DE Matt Shaughnessy (Cardinals)
DT Alameda Ta'amu (Cardinals)
S George Iloka (Bengals)
LB Sean Porter (Bengals)

Now compare the Falcons:

CB Robert Alford
DT Jonathan Babineaux
DT Peria Jerry
DE Jonathan Massaquoi? (really borderline)
S William Moore
CB Desmond Trufant
LB Sean Weatherspoon


Essentially, in his first 5 years of being GM, Dimitroff added 3 guys that were top talent comparable to what Arizona and Cincinnati have brought in. Meanwhile the Cardinals/Bengals defenses have been really good the past few years, while the Falcons have been average or bad.

Coincidence? I think not.

The question really that the Falcons have to ask themselves when it comes to making a trade up for Clowney, is does what they give up prevent them from adding that sort of talent in future years? And if it involves giving up 1st and 2nd round picks, then the answer is DEFINITELY yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:52 am 
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it is a fait accompli at this point. Even if Clowney falls to #6, we wont take him.

:naughty:

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 Post subject: Re: Clowney
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:54 am 
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I'm pretty well on board with Mack at this stage. Especially with Atlanta going all in with the 3-4 alignment based on FA moves.

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