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 Post subject: Our oline = terrible
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:13 pm 
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Our oline is on pace to allow 56 sacks. That is re-dic.......

It wont matter who we have at QB, they will have a short career. Vick may cause a few sacks by dancing around too much, but not nearly as much as he excapes. If we stuck a tree like Shaub back there full time.......he'd be dead before week 10.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:20 pm 
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Agree. I've been saying it for years that the oline needs a major upgrade.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:09 pm 
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a lot of the sacks are because we blow biltz pick-ups and those are usually not the olines fault. It's usually a TE or a RB. Though I do agree that we do not pass protect nearly as well as we need to, but it's not all their fault.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:20 am 
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I think the O-line gets way too much heat from Falcon fans, just like the WRs and Price in particular have gotten over the years. I won't argue that they are a good O-line, but generally they do a decent job protecting Vick. The problem is that sucks often come in bunches and make their pass protection skills come in bunches.

Sacks allowed is a slightly overrated statistic. I mean the Rams are on pace to give up 88 sacks this year, and gave up 50 last year and are still one of the best passing offenses in the league.

Last year, the Falcons were 31st in the league in sacks allowed based on percentage when compared to how many times they threw. They currently rank 31st again in the league.

But it's still early in the season. And I was watching NFL Network today, as it was repeating Tuesday's NFL Total Access. At the end, a guy who examines blitzing trends in the NFL stated how effective the blitz is early in the year, but as the season progresses, it declines in success rate.

I'm just saying don't put too much emphasis in stat trends after only Week 2 of the season. Maybe after Week 4, your stats can be a bit more definitive, but not now...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:28 pm 
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Sacks allowed is a slightly overrated statistic. I mean the Rams are on pace to give up 88 sacks this year, and gave up 50 last year and are still one of the best passing offenses in the league.

Point takin, but heres my point. I have seen several people on here (and I'm pretty sure you're one of them Pudge) saying Vick will never last past 32 because he takes too many hits. Well if our OL will protect him it may give him an extra year or two. We also need to let this guy pass from the pocket and our OL rarely lets that happen. Vick has showed me alot in his first two games. 1 - Hes not looking to run all the time, 2 - he is making good reads. His accuracy is still iffy but I would like to see him throw without someone in his face, like he did on the bomb to Jenks.

Our OL has showed me 1 thing in our first two games. They are the same if not worse at pass protecting then they were last year.

IMO our OL blows.....and nothing will change my mind untill they prove they can block people. Weiner is the best pass blocker we have so I cut him some slack. I dont care how awsome they are a run blocking.....its the system that makes them good at that.


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 Post subject: Play
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:33 pm 
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You could also talk about predictable play calling and the amount of blitz packages Vick will see each game. With 'everyone' coming at you the O-line is going to get beat, they aren't the Great Wall of China.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:38 pm 
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heh, you know what cracks me up???

We have like 20 threads saying how our WR's suck and Vick cant throw and Knapp is an idiot....and everyone on here posts in there agreeing but when I call out the OL.....everyone comes in here with an excuse for why they arent to blame.

Well everyone except my boy Johnny.

Not trying to say anything everyone......just one of those things that makes me go "hmmmmmm".


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:46 pm 
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Quote:
Well everyone except my boy Johnny.


I got your back vickis. :)

The pass blocking is bad, no matter how anyone tries to "spin" it. The run blocking is better statistically I guess, but does it really take talent for a 290 lb oaf to fall down into someone's knees?

A perfect example is in the game last week against the Seahawks. Walter Jones can pass block, and yes the announcers over did and were swinging from his nut sack, but the fact of the matter is that no one on our line even resembles the form he has when it comes to protection.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:08 pm 
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Problem is with Gibbs and McKay in town we won't ever have Pro Bowl offensive linemen. Tampa was never known for a good offensive line because McKay was a defense guy and Gibbs doesn't like high priced, big, offensive lineman.

This is our line whether we like it or not.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:22 pm 
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Problem is with Gibbs and McKay in town we won't ever have Pro Bowl offensive linemen. Tampa was never known for a good offensive line because McKay was a defense guy and Gibbs doesn't like high priced, big, offensive lineman.

This is our line whether we like it or not.


But his philosphy MUST change. Blank and Mora must make McKay realize that our #1 asset is Michael Vick and we need to protect him reguardless of people's preferences.

And just because Gibbs doesnt like big, highly drafted OL doesnt mean we cant find someone that doesnt fall into that mold but can still pass block. I highly doubt all the best pass blockers were high draft picks.

Where was Weiner picked? I would kill for 4 more linemen like him.

McClure must go. His best move is holding. Shaffer is a disgrace. And Forney is a "look out" pass blocker.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:06 pm 
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Shaffer is a turn style, but we can fix the oline all we want it's not going to do any good if we can't have our TE's and RB's pick up the blitz, that's where a lot of the sacks are coming from.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:18 pm 
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RB's pick up the blitz

On a blitz the backs that stay in are usually the second line of defense vs. the blitz but if you've notioced on blitzes they are the only line of defense, which makes the finger once again go back to the line.

Although I do agree we are horrible at picking up blitzes and that is partially due to the second wave failing.

I remember back in 2002 no one would blitz Vick because it would most likely result in a huge run from him. Now teams blitz at will because they know there is nothing we can do. It's a real head scratcher :?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:36 pm 
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unfortunetly when teams blitz us our backfield blockers are ususally the only people free to block because teams are sending 7-8 people. That is why Vick can't run away from the blitz because they are coming from all sides and he doesn't have anywhere to run to. Ideally he's just throw over the top of it but we can't seem to even hinder the blitz in those cases and it almost always results in a sack.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:34 pm 
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Outside of a center that can man up, I like the o-line's play thus far.

The problems have been on blitz pickups and that's with TE's, FB's, WR's, and RB's.

Here's who's been responsible for the sacks so far IMO from the tape:

Sack Watch:
Warrick Dunn 0.5
Justin Griffith 0.5
Alge Crumpler 0.5
Brian Finneran 0.5
T.J. Duckett 0.5
Matt Lehr 0.5
Kynan Forney 1.0
Scheme/audible/non-audible 3.0

As you can see only 1.5 sacks of the 7 we have are attributed to the o-line. 1 of the 3 scheme sacks is due to McClure needing double team help so you can say 2.5 sacks attributed to the o-line...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:55 pm 
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yeah someone agrees with me :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:11 pm 
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I've stayed out of this one because I think this is a team problem. I don't think our O-line is great but Vick has had a pocket to pass out of the first 2 games this year & that is all you can ask for. As has been mentioned the bigger problems are why Vick doesn't audible more (is he even allowed to audible?), why we keep people in who can't pick up a blitz, and why our coaches can't figure out how to stop other teams from wrecking our offense with blitzes.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:58 am 
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I think another source of extra sacks is Vick's height. Even though he has a pocket to throw from he likely can't see downfield if the defensive line is getting any push. They usually stand up the offensive linemen making it hard for a guy that is 6' to see downfield. It forces Vick to jockey around and eventually leave the pocket were he is unprotected. Or run backwards 10 yards to get a clearer view.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:42 pm 
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I think another source of extra sacks is Vick's height.


I used to be concerned with Vicks height and seeing over the lineman up untill Troy Aikman gave his thoughts on that. He wasnt talking about Vick, I forget who he was talking about but when Joe Fu...I mean Buck asked about having a short QB Aikman said he could NEVER see over his lineman and Aikman is 6'4". He said no QB is tought to look over lineman but rather its the linemans job to open lanes that the QB can see through but its the QB's job to be in position to look though the lanes.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:37 pm 
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OK, this is the first evidence I've seen that supports the need for a physically bigger OL. Linemen need to be able to muscle their opponents around enough to where the passing lanes open enough for the QB to see downfield. Are our OLs big enough to maintain passing lanes for Vick? Or is it that Vick doesn't get into position where he can see through the lanes? My observation is that he simply moves at a much faster tempo than the rest of his team. He gets back and into position faster than his OL can create lanes and his WRs can complete their routes. He might need to adjust his timing in order to allow things to develop on a better rythmn.

I like the info that Cap brought to the table because it supports my theory that the OL is less to blame for abundance of sacks than the second line of the blocking scheme. I think Knapp and Gibbs need to rethink that second line of defense for Vick. Whether it means better hot routes or dump passes, we need to have an out that will work for Vick that he can quickly go to when under pressure. Maybe we need to do more two split RB sets where they read the blitz and either pick it up or roll out as another option. I don't see why we could do that more often.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:03 pm 
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Remember the game last year against Denver when Vick actually put up good numbers through the air? Remember how he was sick that game (stomach flu or something) and it looked like he was moving a lot slower. I wonder if the speed he moves at does have something to do with it. Good point there Jagstang, I agree with you. Maybe the coaches should just tell Vick to slow down a little.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:45 pm 
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Well if Vick is moving too fast for our offense maybe we can make him take an extra step or two in his dropback. Instead of a 3 step drop back give him a 5 step drop back. Instead of a 5 step dropback give him a 7 step drop back. He does take his back steps faster then most people can run forward. BNut if hes going to be back further with these increased steps then we may have to adjust th elinemans blocking routine which may be too much for our players to learn as they are already learning Knapp retarded offense.

I'm just thinking out loud here.......

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:01 pm 
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the coaches said before the season started that they were not going to do as many 3 step drops this year. I think letting him do mre 5-7 step drops would help, but it still won't do a damn bit of good if a blitzing corner/safety doesn't get picked up.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:04 pm 
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Vickis... You might get the reward for most avatar changes in a month. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:08 pm 
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You might get the reward for most avatar changes in a month.

I had to. Someone put a huge banner on my pic saying "stealing bandwith is unamerican". And when someone questions my patriotism.....I react. So I'll stick with my boy Ronnie for awhile :D

I'm just wonderin if it was a mod on here or where I uploaded the pic from?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:17 pm 
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Most likely where you uploaded it. If you want to you can tell me where you got it & I can crash their server for you.

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