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 Post subject: We are too soft (Long)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:37 pm 
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This is my first post on this site, but I am an AVID Falcon fan, and I appreciate many of your posts here. In fact, I 'lurk' here all the time, and read the informed posts of many of you. Thanks for all of your contributions. Anyhow.....

I sat in utter amazement about how soft we were yesterday. We got our asses kicked all day in the trenches, on both sides of the ball. I mean, our O-line was getting blown up, and the D-line was moved around all day by a marginal Panther O-line. Our gap-control was hideus, oftentimes we had 2 guys filling the same gap, leaving other gaps wide open. Very frustrating.

It's time we realize this team is going nowhere until we get more physical upfront. McKay has to draft some size and toughness, especially a D-tackle that will 'bring it' on run downs. We are too cute with the current scheme relying on quick, one-gap tackles. I love Coleman, but he gets blown up all day unless it is an obvious passing down. Lavalais and Lake get moved around as well. It just puts the linebackers in a difficult position. Guards and Centers are getting to the 'second-level' with ease against us, and this has to stop if we want to be serious players in January.

It's time we use the draft to bring in some talent on the trenches. It's well documented that our O-line is filled with low draft picks, and with the exception of Kerney, the d-line is filled with them as well. We need a big guy, like Ngata (Oregon), to bring some toughness to the D-line. It is so frustrating to watch oposing backs have career days against us every week.

I want to believe we can compete in the playoffs, I really do. I havent missed a snap of any Falcons game in 15 years, I am fully invested as a fan. But we need to get back to the basics this off-season, and spend the first 3 picks we have on D-line/O-line (preferably 1 D-End, 1 D-Tackle at minimum). I'd also like Huff from Texas to repace Scott or Keion, but I hope we don't use a first rounder on anything but a trench player.

Maybe trade Schaub for a high second rounder (stockpile trench talent), then sign a guy like Harrington to back-up Vick for cheap (I know he sucks, but we only win a super-bowl with Vick anyways, we don't need Schaub if that is our only goal) . I don't know, I am just very frustrated right now, we are not a physical team, I don't care what the offensive rush stats say.

Thanks for reading my rant, I would like to post more often.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:52 pm 
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nice to have you here Tuggle...please feel free to post more often as I like to hear other peoples perspective on things and I am sure the others on this board would say the same...


I agree with your sentiments in that we are not nearly physical enough...I think most of that stems from us being so young on both sides of the ball, but particularly defense...inexperiance is why we are having players miss gap assignments and various other miscues...hopefully with all of the playing time Babs, Shrop, Boley, and Davis are getting will help them elevate their game next year, but unfortuneltly I don't see them being much more than a liability for the rest of this season...

I havn't given up hope on the playoffs yet, we are still easily within reach of a wildcard, but unless we can get our boys to settle down and play some smart football then we will probably be one and done if we do make the playoffs...

I agree that in the offseason we need to look for two or three people to help on the D-line and two or three people to help in the secondary...we don't need to solve all of those problems in the draft either...we need to bring in a couple of veterans to help out...not necessarily big name FA or anything, just some solid vets to help bring a little leadership and stability to our front four...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:47 pm 
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Welcome Tuggle.

You make good points about bringing size up front, but I think it's a moot point to argue. Mora, McKay, and Gibbs firmly believe in their "systems." Gibbs has won and had great success with his smaller, quicker players, and even though our guys are physically overmatched a lot of times, he's not going to change that. I think in terms of the OL, we don't have to get bigger. We just need better athletes, particularly at LT and LG. I don't think we need a road-grading mauler in the middle of the line to have success. We need guys that can match up to the Shaun Rogers and Julius Peppers of the league, and that doesn't automatically mean a guy that is 330 pounds.

Also, I don't think we need a space-filler at DT. Mora & McKay like the quicker tackles that are better at attacking the opposing OL rather than eating up space. I don't think the middle of hte DL has been as much of an issue in terms of run defense as it was earlier in the year. It seems that Babs, Lavalais, Lake, and Coleman have all stepped up their play in that regards. However, I tend to notice that when teams slash us for big runs it's because they are running outside or at the DEs. These guys need to step up their game.

But I don't think that means we need to have a major upgrade in size. Brady Smith was a poor run defender when he first came to Atlanta in 2000. He was 6-5/265, small by DE standards and then turned himself into a solid run stopper by learning better recognition, playing with better technique and leverage and filling out his frame. Kerney is the exact same way and was even smaller when he arrived here. I think the same can happen to Chauncey Davis.

The truth is I'm really not concerned about the front seven as much as others are. I think like Steve-O said, these guys are all very young. And I'm looking more at the long-term situation. Rome is not built in a day. Most are seeing the Indianapolis Colts as the sort of prototype of an attackign DL right now. But those young guys are really starting to take off, despite almost every one of them being considered undersized. It takes time. And one may think that the addition of Corey Simon is a big addition. But despite Simon's size, he is not as great a point of attack run stopper as his size would lend you to believe. He's a 290-pound guy in a 320-pound body.

I really believe that this team is on the right path, and going into an off-season believing we have to make the moves that will be the difference between a wildcard team and the playoffs is going to lead to some bad decision-making. We aren't at the point where the Eagles were in 2004, where going out and getting a guy like T.O. is going to put us over the top and get us over the hump. We need to continue to build.

And you make good points Tuggle58, those areas you point at are concerns. But I think you're going to set yourself up for a lot of disappointment if you expect the coaching staff and front office are going to start to look at players like Ngata that don't fit our system. You'll sleep better at night if you start to think now that he's just not going to be a Falcon, and to expect him or a similar player to be, is just setting yourself up for heartbreak and disappointment. It's just a fact that we'll be going after the Chad Lavalais and Jonathan Babineauxs rather than the Jonathan Sullivans and Shaun Rogers. On the OL, we'll be going after the Frank Omiyales and Matt Lehrs before we go after the Tra Thomases and LeCharles Bentleys.

And I don't want to sound harsh or condescending, but whether you agree with the approach or not, you're just going to have to deal with it.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:40 pm 
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Pudge is right about us our coaches not compromising their schemes...I don't expect us to pick up any big guys for either line, despite how much I'd love to see us get a huge DT...


let's just get some more vets to give us a little depth next year...that's what I want more than anything...and let's sign 3-4 more cb's so that we can be sure that Rossum nor Torrence are never asked to play in coverage again...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:02 pm 
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Pudge,
I do agree with most of what you said. I also realize that we are all at the mercy of McKay's plan, and we must deal with what he wants.

However, the Tampa defense did not explode until Sapp (300 pounds) and McFarland (320+ pounds) developed. Maybe I am naive, but everytime I rewatch the games, Lake/Lavalais/Coleman are getting tossed around like rag dolls on run plays. I am not saying we need Ted Washington or Keith Traylor in there, but I do believe we need some beef to help control the point of attack up the middle.

That would then allow our speedy linebackers (read: Demorrio) to run all over and make plays. If teams run outside on us, that will play into our hands with our speed at LB.

In the end, I am trying not to be critical nor disagree with you guys. I just love physical football. I like guys like LaCharles Bentley. I love TJ Duckett. I LOVED Jamal Anderson in 1998. I think we are a bit soft right now. I just wanna win, and giving up 5 yards a carry every week is not how we do it.

Thanks for the welcome guys.


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 Post subject: Welcome Tuggle58!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:59 pm 
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Welcome to the board Tuggle58.I think you'll find some very knowledgeable fans here and pleassure to have you. Just a few comments about the game yesterday. I am extremely frustrated with hiow the game turned out. The Panthers finally got the personel to beat the falcon's and get the monkey off there back.Our lines were out physicalyed all day.The is no excuse for not tackling correctly and while at first I blame the players where are the coaches in all of this.Mora keeps saying they are working on it.Guess they will be working on it when we watch the other teams play in the playoffs and the falcons are sitting at home.

Things I see or want to comment on how to improve the falcon's.

1.The safeties I hope both get replaced.I am tired of having the weakest safeties in the league.We really need a veteran and a rookie high draft choice to be back there.I would like 2 rookies but that ain't going to happen.I can understand why the safeties have to play near the line of scrimmagre since our def line can't stop the pass/run by themselves.Also though even if our safeties were playing back I don't think they could help with the better receivers in the league doubling them up.Steve Smith ate hall all day.Hall is playing back to far however I have a feeling if hall played up on him there would be no help from the safety and smith would blow right by hall for a quick score.We need faster and more physical safeties.
2.The offensive line - Carolina just man handled the falcon's line all day.There were times the falcons moved the ball but when it counted the falcon's could not perform.I want weiner gone.Peppers ate him for lunch a few times and it wasn't even a contest.Rucker also played well and I hope Mcclue get replaced.If we don't go bigger on the off line please get some better athletes.The Falcon's can't compete at the highest level with low talent.
3.Will davis become a good def end? Get Babs out of there he is to slow to play def end.If Brady is cut and davis can't perform who plays def end next year?
4.Not sure about the other teams running up the middle or side to side.We heard from the coaches a few weeks ago the defenders were not staying in there lanes that is why the other team is running on us.Either get some smarter defenders or more talent.My opinion we don't have the personel to get ot the QB and stop the run.
5.Not having kerney almost injured in there we saw how vulnerable the falcon's pass rush is.It is nonexistent.I Davis plays and can't rush the QB next year the falcon's defense is dead.I would like to have a veteran or a more talented rookie as secuirty.
6.Coleman was shut down yesterday.Every year the panthers mostly draft linemen in the top of the draft.We need some others to pick up the pace or the whole defense will get ate up.

I just don't think the falcon's have the personel to compete for champsionship.That is obvious but even with a year experience for the rookies and hartwell,and the others back do we have enough talent.I don't think so.The falcon's should have some quality picks in the draft and need to make each one count.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:06 pm 
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I know you did not say Hall got ate up by Smith....60 yards and a TD, which was about a foot from getting taken the other way by Hall & only happened because Carpenter tried to wingbone tackle Smith. In what world is that eating someone up? Hall did a terrific job covering Smith, especially considering Delhomme had all day to sit in the pocket & wait for Smith to get open.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:54 pm 
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I think hall did about as well as any corner can against Smith...those drag routes were what Smith got most of touches on and those are hard as hell to defend against when you have a players as quick and shifty as Steve Smith...the best you can hope for is to tackle him and not allow yac...Hall did a pretty good job on that...and I didn't even really mind the td that hall allowed...the only reason Hall tried to jump it was because he knew he had safety help and the safety whiffed...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:24 pm 
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I don't think you'll see any "big" (size wise) guys in Atlanta any time soon. Dome teams are built for one thing only... speed. Speed usually means smaller lighter players in most all postions. The Rams and Colts are good examples. It makes it tough in the trenches, especially against very physical teams like the Panthers.

We'll see it agian in Chicago with their defense, unfortunately.


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 Post subject: Hall should be playing tight on Smith!
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:35 pm 
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I know its donatrell's defensevie scheme having the corners play off but I wonder if it is really that or the falcon corners can't play tight for fear of being beat with no safties to help out. I saw a different game then you guys.Smith was making alot of catches since hall was playing off him.Do you think deion would do that if he was playing in his prime.He would not give an inch to a receiver.

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 Post subject: Hall contained Smith
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:46 pm 
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Looking at the stats from yesterday I should have said contained Smith.Smith certainly didn't get shutdown.Anyone concern about Hall and his take no crap approach from the other team? I mean you have got to use your head and even though the other team might be egging you on realize a penalty by you can cost your team a big first down or some other type of penalty that hurts the team.I see this to much from hall who needs to learn to take it in stride and let his play on the field show who is boss not penalize your team.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:59 pm 
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I definitely got a bit upset when he threw the ball back in Hoover's face, but I was much more upset by the announcers' insisting that Hoover "didn't flip it at anyone" when it went right to D.Hall. Luckily, Hall is already one of the most respected corners in the league & tends to get calls in his favor, which is what makes him different than the rest of the Falcons. I think we don't play up because of the rest of the DB's suck so bad. I mean we left Webster alone with Proehl & he got beat deep. It's pathetic. We need a complete overhaul in the defensive backfield & we need more pass rushers. Since we're going to be a speed team, we have to add more players in that mold. We need speed rushers, speedy DB's, and speedy Safeties that can tackle. Safeties cannot afford to miss tackles and both made huge miss-tackles that cost the team AGAIN. I will be working on a new mock draft for the War Room that should be more catered towards our needs, since I would rather not dwell on this anymore...mainly because we can't do anything about it.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:42 am 
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I think one of the problems with our defense is our safeties. I'm not going to give up on Bryan Scott, as this is only his 3rd year in the league, and his first at a new position where he is now the defacto leader of the secondary. I'll give him another year or two to grow into the position.

But it is interesting just how much the play of our safeties has slipped with the loss of Cory Hall. Hall was definitely not a playmaker, and the safeties were definitely not a strength when he was here, but they didn't feel like such a weakness.

I was hoping the Falcons could sign a guy like Will Demps, who is a solid run-stuffing safety. But he tore his ACL last week and is probably not going to be 100% by the time training camp starts. Demps I thought was an ideal fit because he was an up and coming player that wasn't going to cost a ton of money to sign. But now, we'll either have to pay an arm and a leg for a guy like Archuleta or Tank Williams, or have to settle on a weaker player. Shaun Williams is a player that I think is the type of safety we've been looking for, but he's been such a disappointment in New York for the past few years, he's a risky pickup.

Otherwise, it might be a position that we need to focus on early in the draft. And I'd much rather use a #1 pick on a CB or OL before we did on a safety.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:37 pm 
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Tuggle58 wrote:
However, the Tampa defense did not explode until Sapp (300 pounds) and McFarland (320+ pounds) developed. Maybe I am naive, but everytime I rewatch the games, Lake/Lavalais/Coleman are getting tossed around like rag dolls on run plays. I am not saying we need Ted Washington or Keith Traylor in there, but I do believe we need some beef to help control the point of attack up the middle.



They are getting tossed around, which has to be embarassing for them. I think, if we had a bigger D-Line, then our LB Blitz's would be more effective. These huge Tackle's that we match up against are man-handling our D-Line, then they move on to the blitzing LB's, which is why(IMO) we aren't getting that much pressure on the QB

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